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Carolyn Boroden, The Trading Zoo, Larry Levin


Does anyone have any expereince with or know anything about the following trading gurus?

Carolyn Boroden
The Trading Zoo <- Dedicated topic.
Larry Levin (Secrets of Traders)

Wanting a great place to learn and don't want to get taken.

Please feel free to e-mail direct at nepsa@sbcglobal.net

Thanks,

wan

[Edit by day trading: Link to dedicated topic for TradingZoo.com]
Bruce,

I didn't email you again since our last because there was nothing to further discuss. The ball was in your court and you chose to take it here in the forum rather than to me directly, so I don't understand you complaint. Are you feeling seperation anxiety?

I set the rules for disclosure about this system and was under no obligation to post a website or any other information. I asked those who were interested to email me with their name and phone number so we could talk. You chose not to do that give aphone number, but I nevertheless answered all your questions in a straightforward manner. Apparently, that wasn't satisfactory to you. I didn't sugar coat anything and perhaps the straightforward nature of my comments bothered you, since I'm supposed to be a real sweet con artist to lure you into a web of deceit leaving you $5000 lighter.

Your angry post confirms my feeling that you have a chip on your shoulder, negative and indeed hostile, because like a kid in a toy store who's parents don't get him everything he wants, you're not getting trader's private statements. It really is driving you crazy and you sound a bit obsessive. You have every right to request anything you want, but that doesn't mean your entilted to get any or all of it. Get over it and stop ranting and raving. Trading statements are as confidential as tax returns and you are naive to think anyone would give you a copy of either.

You're also lashing out at me because I took it upon myself to tell you I didn't think you'd be a good fit in our room. So the rejection hurts. If I was part of an unscrupulous multi-level marketing plan to scam people and take their money, would it make sense to turn your money down, which is as green as the next persons? Read my early posts: I clearly say time and again that possible members need to be vetted and this system and style is not for everyone. Attitude is important. In fact, much more important that your $5000, which, for the record, I never breathed a word of during our dialogue.

Be my guest and post our entire email dialogue. I dare you. I have nothing to hide whatsoever.

And to those of you who I did speak with on the phone and were invited to join our group, please feel free to add to this discussion if any you think or feel like Bruce. No need to post any positive remarks as those will be viewed by the skeptics as a testimonial and immediately discounted.


day trading,

Sorry to answer your post out of order, but Bruce's jumped off the page. lol.

I have been in the system for 3 months and yes, for that period of time the numbers are very close to the historical ones that were represented to me before I became a member.
quote:
Originally posted by ahk

...Trading statements are as confidential as tax returns and you are naive to think anyone would give you a copy of either.

No one doubts the confidentiality of trading statements but let's look at some analogies to see why prospective clients would want to see your trading statements.

If you were to buy a small business, you are unlikely to do that unless you and your accountant have gone through their confidential accounts and bank statements in fine detail to ascertain that the profitability is what they claim it is.

If you are to buy a franchise, you will probably be required to sign some non-disclosure agreements before they show you the profitability figures and the financial potential of the business.

If I were to buy into any trading system or room I would want to see some irrefutable evidence that the traders were/are as profitable as they say they are.

So we arrive at a problem where you do not want to show your trading statements which is perfectly understandable because they are confidential. BruceM wants to see them as proof that your claims are legitimate. Here is an idea for a solution:

Your broker is privy to seeing your statements and performance. You may not want to reveal dollar amounts but I am fairly certain that you would not object to disclosing your month-to-month percentage returns. If your broker agrees, then BruceM could call him/her and confirm the returns over the period that you specified. (Of course you would have to give your broker the go ahead to confirm the details.)

One of the other questions that BruceM brought up was that of commission that you receive for bringing someone into the room. Now I have no problem with people earning commission for that sort of thing. I prefer it if I am told that upfront in one of the first sentences that I hear.

The problem with earning commission for something like this is that it can naturally bias you to pushing it without you intentionally wanting to.

One of the best forms for paying you commission would be to delay the commission and make it performance based. Say that you get 10% commission and the course costs $5,000. BruceM or whoever pay the $5,000 but $500 of that goes into escrow. Only after X number of months does it get released as commission to you and only if Bruce's account has appreciated by the amount you would expect it to. Of course you could add all sorts of clauses into the condition. If your account appreciates by X amount and Bruce's doesn't because he's been on vacation then you would still be entitled to it etc...

If you take a look at Guy Kawasaki's recent blog post Money as a Social Barrier you will see right at the end that he says: "My take on this is that if you have to pay your customers to evangelize your product or service, you probably don’t have a great product or service."

What he is saying is commission-free referrals happen for great products and services. People evangelize these products and services because they love them and not because they are getting paid to do so.
AHK your true colors are starting to show...who is lashing out at who?
You'll have to work a lot harder to get under my skin..you forget that I've been a daytrader for almost 9 years...lol..here is what you last wrote here...

"I didn't email you again since our last because there was nothing to further discuss. The ball was in your court and you chose to take it here in the forum rather than to me directly, so I don't understand you complaint. Are you feeling seperation anxiety?"

So it sure sounds like you have some problems here and your last post here to me confirms that you are nothing but a vendor... attacking me is a tell-all sign.. ...here is my full last email to you that has gone unanswered...your dance has begun.. I knew you would try and pin this on me...so please see the questions that you have not replied to and don't miss the question about "Why" we really can't get a web address or the room name..hmmm perhaps you are concerned about missing out on your commission...I'm sure any room where someone pays 5k is blocked anyway.... Your future is limited here on this forum and obviously you haven't got the positve response you wanted ($$$$)..here is the email....keep on dancing.....I still can't beleive not one person could even white out their statements....what a joke..


My email to you that received no answer...
"
No Chips.no unreasonable expectations....just skepticism so I may not be right for you folks...I would also need more than a week to evaluate......

been to these...and why do u need to know...just curious...
KingFish, Blue Falcon, S&P500Guru, , Acetrades, ..Pagetrader and others

Why no statements? Not one memeber including yourself can provide profitable statements..?It seems like a simple and reasonable request..Why can't you give me the name of the room or the website? I learned a long time ago that if you confront a vendor they tend to throw it back in your face as a defense..go on the "attack" a bit.....The next step is you will tell me " I am not a good fit for your room"........Think about it....reread your reply to me....( below) No "happy Thanksgiving " there...not even your name at the end......so a sense of anger is in your reply.....and that is not meant to be rude...just an honest observation...If I am going to learn from anyone whether it be via a DOM with Candles or anything, I expect the best...and to be respected as I would any memeber of a room I became affiliated with....Congrats on the two points..good trade...I hope you and your family have a happy and safe ThanksGiving

Bruce"

also make sure you see how I tell YOU that I may not be the right fit....yet you want to keep twisting things...

Bruce


day trade,

All of your points are vaild and some of the analogies are too, but the room has it rules of doing business and those rules are not going to be changed for anyone. The room is an ancillary source of income to the owner (he makes high six figures trading each year) and couldn't care less if someone signs up or not.

Prospective members get a full five days to sit in the room. If they require more time, it is usually granted, but no one is going to jump through hoops to satisfy one person's angst or reluctance. There is no hard sell here. So this service is being offered on as "as is" basis if you will. Take it or leave it. That's why I thought being able to speak to prospects ro get a lot more information than a two page website would have some value. And, indeed, all the folks who I spoke with were most grateful. Some felt and I concurred, the room was not for them and others were very enthusiastic to check it out. Only one, Bruce, refused to give a phone number but yet wants all his questions answered and then starts a smear campaign.

Bruce,

I'm sorry to report that the followup email which you reference never arrived in my box. If you care to forward the original copy (with time and date stamp) I will reply if you think it makes sense. But honestly, I think there is too much bad blood here and its not worth the aggravation to continue. I never intended this to get out of hand. At this point, I'm not really sure what your intentions are other to attack my credibility, vent anger and have me go quietly into the night.

So now I ask you--in fact dare you again--to post our entire email conversation, unedited and unvarnished, to show the readers the scope of the dialogue. No more selective cut-n-paste quotes. Let them be the judge if I am the evil vendor that you portray. Are you man enough to do that? I have nothing to hide, do you?

Lastly, if the powers that be who run this site request I leave, I will do so with dispatch and no regrets or ill will.
What service is being provided for $5,000 ?

Is it a registered trading advisory service, making specific trade recommendations, or is it an educational service teaching traders a trading system/method ? Does it make live trade calls ?

Based on experience, I will assume this is promoted as an educational service, in which case it is under no legal obligation to provide real-time trading results. Your being taught a trading system/method, in my view it's just like buying a book. With that said, I feel a reputable service will publish in the public record an actual track record, (not account statements.) When the service publishes a track record, that claim then falls under the regulatory supervision of the CFTC/NFA. And I do know of several cases where the CFTC has performed an audit of the claims made by an educational service and taken punitive action where warranted. This disclosure combined with a reasonable trial period enables the prospective customer to the verify the method lives up to the advertising and published track record.

Also, without knowing the name of the trader/owner or trading company, we are unable to perform a cursory investigation of the service in the CFTC and NFA records for any prior or open issues or actions taken associated with this service.
How convenient to not have received that email....I get a kick out of you...I have no problem posting all the emails with Guys permission..there are only 5 or 6 total I beleive....but the real issue is just as I predicted you are "dancing" around the questions from my last post...so I will post all the emails if needed...no big deal to me..you are a scam.....So why don't you just tell us right here and now what vendor or room you represent...is it really that big of a deal?

If anyone is interested in the emails I will post them...we shall dance just a liitle bit more Alex Kelly then I have to move on and let the smart folks here decide for themselves about you...

Bruce
pt,

This is an educational service teaching traders a trading system/method. It makes live trade calls. I'm not a lawyer, but I assume if there were any legal obligations to prove results and the like to any regulatory or state agencies, the service would do so. It doesn't, so I assume there aren't any.

day trading,

You wrote "My take on this is that if you have to pay your customers to evangelize your product or service, you probably don’t have a great product or service."

I told Bruce that I am doing this on my own, not at the request of the owner; in fact, he has no idea about this, let alone asking me to pound the pavement for him. He has oferred a finder's fee which is reasonable and quite common in the financial services industry.

In a prior incarnation before I became a fulltime trader, I was a Wall St. investment banker specializing in mergers and acquisitions. Many of my new clients were referred by other ones, some of which were paid a fee by my firm if the deal closed. I believe my clients who told others about me did so because they were very happy with the result and service my firm provided them, not too collect a commission. And I was more than happy to pay them even though they reaped millions of dollars from my work (which of course I was paid for). God knows most of these clients were very wealthy after they sold their businesses and they didn't need the extra income. We live in a capitalistic society, so I had no problem paying them since they created value that I otherwise would not have received without their referall.

There is nothing jaundiced or unethical about it.
Bruce you offered to post the emails, so go ahead and do it. The guys already gave you permission remember?

Also, my inbox is still empty from your alleged last email. How convenient for you not to resend it. Perhaps it never existed?Don't forget to include the time stamp (I won't hold my breath).

My hunch about you was correct. You are an angry,negative person who carries a lot of baggage from your prior bad experiences with trading systems and I wouldn't recommend you to our room for $50,000 let alone $5000. As I wrote to you before, "negativity has no place in trading." So this dance is over for you. Good luck in your endeavors wherever they take you.

To the sincere people I spoke with, I look foward to seeing you in the room and if you have any other questions, just give me a call. And for those of you who's interest has been piqued by this drama feel free to contact me.

Wow....it doesn't take much to get under your skin AHK....sounds like your ready to pack your bags already.....what a surprise..? You where too easy....lol...I have a private email sent to Guy and will wait for his response...I am not going to clog up his site without his permission....I sent you the email you requested and you can follow along.......It would have been so much easier if you came on this forum and said " Hey I am a vendor, I get a fee from ( Insert your favorite vendor here) if I get you to sign up, but these guys really trade and I can show you some actual statements...I'm really a good guy with some actual trading ideas but I still make my money from vending and not trading" I don't want the nice people at this site to be ripped off by you. Why are you so angry ..? Have I spoiled a potential income stream? Go and learn some real trading skills.....the emails will come if Guy wants them posted...until then...look in your inbox and decipher what went on....You still haven't answered all my questions....I am shocked....lol...You guys make my day..I appreciate the fun

Bruce
quote:
Originally posted by BruceM

well that will be cool AHK! I suggest that everyone should wait at least 6 months before taking the trial so they can see all those statements....and of course make sure any and all statements you receive from any vendor are reviewed by a neutral 3rd party and don't just take the brokers word....in this case I ASSume it would be Mirus futures as they are the ones that the tradingzoo.com room suggests to trial members...so don't rely on them only ....you will need at least one impartial review to make it legit if you are thinking of using this vendor or any other...ok nuff said on this...thanks for getting to those questions


Bruce



No problem Bruce. I would hope that anybody who receives statements directly from a broker would accept those as actual copies. I can't imagine a reputable broker engaging in a willful fraud when there is nothing to gain and everything to lose. At any rate, I'm not sure yet if the confidentiality agreement will allow for the sharing of the information with third parties who don't have a need to know.