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I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:

We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about

From 6/8/09:

jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.

cba33558: Hey Jim -

Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...

The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.

The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.

In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.

Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...

jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.

I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.

Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.

Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.
Originally posted by Alinghy

Happy to hear from You ALL ideas, suggestions, all constructive comment, please ..

Hi friend;

It seems you are all set to go.

It is amazing that you think that you need OUR ideas to make this snake run better.


we have already donated our ideas and our suggestions at the viper chat room! These suggestions are already part of what you are using now!

Thank you for posting the charts. Keep up the good work.

Rest assured that all our comments are constructive and well intended.

You know, I could say a number of things in response to all of the above; but I think it would be best to let the feedback from some of the Viper users speak for itself. Thought this excerpt from the email below is a good example of the many like it we receive everyday:

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 12:50:23 -0400 [11:50:23 AM CDT]
From: John C <jgriffin132@****.com>
To: Support@****.com

"...Overall i think the program is great and i know you guys, and your
partners, are putting in alot of work and i thank you for that!

Lastly i just wanted to let you guys know that the Viper system is working
great for me. I almost blew up my account over the course of the past 9
months or so, but since using Viper I'm 22 winning trades to 5 losses. I'm
going to make all my money back with this system and also i plan on doing
this for a living for the rest of my life. And i'm only 23 so i hope i can
keep working with you guys for a long time and learn as much as i can from
the experience the Viper team has!

Have a great long weekend (maybe even lay off from working so much?! haha)

John G. C

A more convincing and verifiable response would be for either you
or Gary to trade the system live in the room for a day or so and show
the attendees how it works, rather than marking up charts later on.
Anyone can tout a system if they wait until after the hard right edge
of the chart has printed.

Seemes like you even get great feedback from Gary Donahoo, who is one of the original partners. This was posted on the website. Also, it looks like Gary has a twin brother who writes testominals just like him. You guys are very unethical.

Originally posted by thetaxman


A more convincing and verifiable response would be for either you
or Gary to trade the system live in the room for a day or so and show
the attendees how it works, rather than marking up charts later on.
Anyone can tout a system if they wait until after the hard right edge
of the chart has printed.


They tried that a few times and it was absurd. They told the room members AFTER THE FACT when the got in and out of trades.

These two don't trade, they vend. Professional traders don't vend Holy Grail solutions to newbees.
All they would have to do is use Chart Trader, either in Sim or on a live account. That would show the members the correct entry/exit procedures are followed by the moderators. The system does catch the longer trends, but the false breakouts are a problem, just like any trend following system. If they would demonstrate that their methods keep them out of the false breakouts much of the criticism would be put to rest. Just reiterating the general rules does not prove that they take the entries indicated.
I don't really care that their indicators are simply reinventions of the 21 Period LinReg indicator for the Viper, the Donchian Channel for the Breakout, the Modified Heinken Ashi indicator available at BigMikeTrading for their colored bars or any of a half-dozen pivot indicators available in the Ninja forum. What is important is that they say they have a method for utilizing these tools. If they would just demonstrate live that they trade with them profitably then the fee they charge would be for instruction and may very well be worth the money.

It would also be less suspicious if they allowed attendees in the room to see the questions and responses, rather than saying that GoToWebinar will not allow it. We all know that is not the case.
For THETAXMAN and the other skilled Friends

I completely agree with you: I dont care where and how they eventually remixed a few indicators, this could be an added value.

What I posted on friday is what happened in front of me during the day trading, no tricky Bull***t .

But we must look at this strategy for a few days also with a maket going sideways. Due the fact the software is only a beta and Viper's People said that better settings are on the way, in the mean while we could observe this first release. Normally, after words, facts must follow and nothing more.

Mr. Gary promise me that my beta will be working also for the next week, and if this is the case, I will post charts every end of the day trading.

We will see also upgrades and evetual benefits in case of operational troubles: it's easy to destroy than to build up something.

Let them working giving the right time also for corrections.

The target is to get something working in a good way .

For the Holy Grail I think, IMO, there is time.

best regards


I forgot to say:

it is very very easy to look at a chart after events and teach to people how... and when... buy ...sell or stay out !

A big difference to see the chart building second after second, tick by tick.... and just to give an example a blue or red bar forming subjected to a setup as 'on bar close = true or false', changing from blue to red or yellow, and then again red or blue or nothing !

There are a lot of Wizards around that literally eat the brains of people attending a webinar with established technical procedures, and persons are there astonished, ohhhh..... yes.... he is right,.... clever, etc. etc. .

I dont give a s**t for these people, and want them out of the business.

Unfortunately, also some good Firms are time to time introducing these type of persons and I consider those Company no little responsible for behaviors like the ones above mentioned.

That's it

Again thanks for now.

I was not really referring to the Auto-trader system being developed. I was referring to the manual Viper system that was the original product being advertised. No historical results have been produced nor has a live demonstration of the system, with the rules as written, been given. I am not saying that the Viper system is not valid, nor am I saying that Charles and Gary are less than honest. All I am suggesting is that they could put the criticism to rest and likely gain new customers by actually demonstrating that the system performs for them the way they say it does. Merely posting marked up charts after the day is done is not a demonstration of the effectiveness of the system any more than me picking the winner of the World Series after game 7 is over.

I agree with your clarification: need to add that there are dozens of guys around, that show entry and exit points looking at the chart, for an already spent opportunity, and to be clear in all these signals seem to be possible to buy or sell, but in reality, in the real market, when you think to enter you are already late, loosing money, and done badly;
so selling fantasy and bad skilling to people that approach this world and leave bones broken every where, is an illegal act.

These are enemies of truth. They show themselves as friends, they want to drive you by hand: not verity !

In any case we will see ...

I repeat let Charles and Gary working.

Bye All
Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.

I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.

If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.