jim and i are using the tools of this forum.the difference is he says he wants to stay with trend and miss top. i say that based on the tools of this forum, similar conditions setup over and over at swing extremes and i want to take advantage of that work.at the recent top, the tools of this forum were compelling that some sort of selloff was coming... was it a BIG top? to say that would be forcasting and not based on tools...for big tops to occur volatility increases and big swings set up to eventually give much bigger targets.. it is just a guess that this downswing is part of that process.

I just want it to be understood, when I say miss the top, I mean for long-term leap put plays, or short position trades, I don't want to look back after the trade has played out for say 6 or 8 or 10 months, like the March low, and see I entered the trade right at the reversal point. As I've explained so many times I'm literally blue in the face, this does not mean I do not play counter trend at areas of significance, as I do, all the time. I generally don't take it right at the area, though, I wait for a lower timeframe setup in that countertrend, so I can ride the current trend trade I may be in until it confirms that play is over. With the trend, as in yesterday's spectacular 25 point pop, I usually enter with the first trigger right off the area. And back to the reversal point point, if I look back at my work and see I hit a traded timeframe reversal point then I know I'm top or bottom calling on that timeframe, for a new, equal-sized trend, and that's not my style.

Here's the question I have, and then I'm getting burned out on this topic. I'm so discouraged I've actually thought about folding the forum. This is a question for roofer, and I hope he provides a detailed explanation, because I think it could help provide some great learning for all those studying in here. As motivation for the roofer, let me point out that I think almost everyone in here is becoming a roofer style trader, and my role in here is getting more and more limited, so his explanation here will help all those adopting his style.

When the two previous times you thought the top was in, but it only sold off a bit and then went to a new high, how did you trade those 'all in' bets? Or by all in, did you just mean a bigger position size? By 'all in' I read that as long-term hold, like way back when you told me you'd be hold that $4 CDE for years and years and years (which turned out to be the play of the decade). Did you ride it down and then how far back up? And then you missed the long side? Will you hold this all the way back up, if it did go back up?

If you took the other plays off at the support and then went long again, those aren't 'all in' bets as I see it, they are the same as you always do. Hence, you aren't picking tops at all. If you're thinking that it may be a bigger selloff than usual doesn't change your trading at all, what does it matter what you think about the significance of that top? I need more info on your management to even begin to understand what you are actually doing, and if I don't understand your positioning, I doubt the group trying to emulate you understand it. Any explanation would be appreciated.

i can see that my presence here is causing stress. i am simply using the tools that i have always shown here...when i see every last thing i look for is in place i go all in, a few times a year....when i see targets being hit across the board i lighten up, looking for continuation signals or reversal signals as i am doing right now....that's about it...not all trades work... you measure to the target, divide by four and hope for the best....i will leave this forum as i have left all others... it seems there is no place for my work... take care traders.

You know, it's a funny thing. I just won a nickel bet from myself that we would get the exact response we did from roofer. I had thought, not seconds after I posted that, that I should post a follow up, explaining my explanation of my explanation, so roofer didn't take it wrong. Then I got busy with the market action and didn't do it. Then I said I better send roofer an e-mail and explain my explanation of my explanation, so he doesn't take the post wrong. Then I was so hungry from not eating for hours and hours that I decided to eat lunch, and then do that. I just came back to my computer, and saw I was too late, he already responded.

Now, I can go on and on and explain in even more detail, but roofer is already gone, and as I mentioned, I'm tired of explaining. Look, I do mentoring for students, and I teach my techniques. If someone wants to pay me and I think they are a reasonable candidate, we work. But, if it gets to the point that most people are asking me what roofer does, and to explain his work, they need to contact roofer and pay him and he can teach them. I'm not going to get paid to teach DBS and mantra 2 and BLT and 'The Trade' and so on.

If I have a forum, and the purpose of the forum is to have a place for KT'ers to meet up, post charts, ask questions, and so on, and all anyone wants to talk about is roofer's setups, like I said, I'm fine with that, they are awesome setups, and I've probably learned more from roofer than anyone else has, and I've probably learned more from him than from anyone else. But, my role in the forum is getting less and less. I'm fine with that, I don't have a lot of time anyway.

I just need to make clear for the zillionth time: roofer's way is not my way. We do seem to find almost all the same spots, and wind up on the same side almost every time for every play, but my way is still different. I can't teach roofer's way, I teach my way. Since I don't post a lot of charts, and am not in here trying to teach step-by-step I understand people study the material at hand, and roofer is the most prolific poster. That's great. But some of the higher level concepts that I am trying to convey to my upper level students are getting lost in the difference in styles.

I try to explain (and one of my very long-term students mentioned he completely understood my explanation and thought it was among my best posts ever), but I think most simply are not grasping the key concepts I am trying to convey. This frustrates me. roofer's style is target to target, line to line. Maybe that's just better for everyone. It's simple, and straightforward. No 'context' analysis, which is tough for everyone, no figuring out the trend. Just hit the geometry and be done with it.

It's getting too hard for me to try to fight against this, so I just don't want to try. Even with roofer gone, everyone seems to want to just do that style, and to call tops, and so on. I'll just focus on my mentoring, and post some ES or CL setups and comments when I see them. If the forum degrades too much I'll just shut it down, which I'm very tempted to do now anyway. I'll see how it goes, but I'm giving it serious thought.

I hope all will stay the way it is now. I must say it is strange to see you guys acting this way :) I understand that people like roofer's work as it is really one of the best. I bought the books and came to this forum for Jim's work. I can easly see that Jim's work is a little different than roofer's work. But roofer shows again and again Jim's patterns in his work. And that is fine. I do not know who is asking Jim about roofer's work but I can say is is not smart (and I am beeing polite here).
I am one of those who do not participate much in the forum but I read it every day. For our luck some people showed up like Jarek for example and forum is alive again. Why change or stop something what started to work again? I do not think I have to explain myself but I will. I am so busy every day (trading full time) that making posts on the forum would make me work more than 12 hours a day. So I find time only to read excellent material which every day is beeing posted here. Hopefully it will change in some time and I can post more.
To finish this long post (this is 8:20 am here in Poland and I already start to work with my journal and preparation for US session) I have to say it would not be fair for clients of Jim if the forum goes down. If I am not wrong this was a part of the package we bought and I really use it to search for stuff and learn more. Hopefully Jim will not do it and we will see roofer posting his stuff. Please understand me here ... sometimes it feels like in high school here :) I really hope that all of us act 100% proffessional.

wow guys,
all that drama happening while i took some time off the forum.
what's with all the roofer's pouting ? can't take a constructive criticism? as traders shouldn't we keep our emotions/egos in check?
I personally respect and admire Roofer's work and follow what he has to present, but since he doesn't have any available published detailed work besides the online forums/blogs posts, I can't really comprehend the scope of his methods nor can I comment or make suggestions to his trading plans wich might be overwhelming for most of us, or so it seems.Perhaps it is missing a clearer 'structure' of sort that link everything together in a more homogenous trading plan.Or perhaps there is a strutured plan but I think Roofer failed to publicly convey that to us. What I can say about his work is that it is beautiful and his devotion to sharing his trading knowledge with us is/was much appreciated. But now whatever happened just happened, let's move on.

I am currently working on my own proprietary methods, brainstorming and trading round the clock and will just post irregularly and not too often.But I definitely miss chatting with my ol'trading buddy Jim Kane. This forum is the only sanctuary we have for discussing trading with the KT methods as well as other experimental techniques.It'd be a shame for it to cease existence.But I won't blame Jim if he does fold it. I totally understand his frustration as to the lack of participation in here. I did my part but didn't get the follow through interest I was hoping for, so I kind of gave up and redirected my focus to my own trading.
By the way, to all IB traders in here, we can have a live chat room using IB's trader chat feature.Just log on and create a private room with the 'KT' mention in the room's name so we know it is KT related.And post password in here if needed. My user name is tonyC so u know it's me. I extend this invitation to all KT methods followers of this forum and the master himself Mr Jim Kane. If you're bored or just want to discuss anything trading related in a more timely manner then this is the place I'll hang out at (day and night) for now, we'll see how it goes. Sorry for the non-IB persons in here but that's the only available chat setup i've got.
regards to all
T

Let's be clear here: this is Jim's forum setup for KT traders and that's it. Jim's methodology is awesome and that's why we're here.
Whatever other people have to add to it or maybe enhance it is great, but let's not deviate.
Jim, don't fold it. We're still here even though less frequently.
Looking back this forum makes a great archive and reference. It's like a library for Kane traders.

Originally posted by mreiserer

Let's be clear here: this is Jim's forum setup for KT traders and that's it. Jim's methodology is awesome and that's why we're here.
Whatever other people have to add to it or maybe enhance it is great, but let's not deviate.
Jim, don't fold it. We're still here even though less frequently.
Looking back this forum makes a great archive and reference. It's like a library for Kane traders.

I could not have said it any better. Not always the quantity, but the quality of posts here in unmatched.