Mind Engines Neogen Matrix Trading Solutions

I am thinking of buyong into the neogen trading system by mind engines inc. Is anyone familiar with this system. It ia an automated system on the e mini. Just checking before I jump in with the bucks. Any comments! Thanks, Kevin
I just spent about 2 hours on the phone with one of the mindengine reps. He walked me through their website, and explained in detail about their Neogen system. He said that from 2005+ that the results are actual, because they had actual clients trading with the system, and that the data from earlier than 2005 was just simulated trading.

He directed me to the BBB website, and it shows their company. Here is a link from the BBB website: http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business/CompanySearchResults.aspx?RedirectCode=7111&CompanyName=mindengines

Also, the California Secrety of state's website shows their company:

I asked what brokerage firms they were affiliated with, and was given the names "MAN FINANCIAL" a/k/a "MAN SECURITES", and also "Archer, Daniels & Midland". I know nothing about these clearinghouses, but will be doing some research.

After 2 hours on the phone with the guy, they dropped their offer to $4999 for 3 of their systems, the Neogen, the RTS, and their up and coming Foreign Exchange System. (Forex).

They seem to be a legit company, but I still have a lot of research before I would drop this kind of $$, and it would probably take a year with a $5000 brokerage account, to make back the cost of the system.

If this "Striker" securities offers managed accounts using the Neogen trading system, then heck yea, I'd just rather use them.

They walked me through their website which shows their trading results of their system.
I'm sure they'd be happy to give you the speel if you call them.

They say they charge more to people who call them, but I'm sure they'd sell you their "system" for $4999 if you said that's all you would pay.

If the actual results they publish are real, then the system looks good. The question is how to verify it.

I will be looking into the company further, and will post any additional info that I run across.

I would be curious what the one complaint was that was filed with BBB.
Thanks for the follow-up and report ztrader. If you do talk to them again then perhaps you can ask them what the complaint was. After cruising around the BBB site for a while I could not establish if the complaints and answers were available to the public or kept confidential.

I am still waiting for Preston to get back to me with his broker's number so that I can verify the results that he got with the system.

The "actual" results that they report on their web sites are results that their clients received you say? I have been trying to see those results on their site but it appears that you need a logon id and password.

I am not sure if I've ever heard of anyone reporting their clients results as actual results but I don't see anything wrong with that. I wonder if there is any auditing or control over how the client traded with their system? i.e. purely their system (neogen) or a hybrid of their own system and neogen's?
One other thing I'd like to add:

The guy who called me from MindEngines was somewhat high pressure, wanting me to commit to purchasing it, with saying like "if I offer you this, and that, and show you that we're a legit company, will that convince you to try out our system". He also offered a money back guarantee in writing, but that means nothing to me. Their guarantee is that if the system is not profitable after 6 months, then 1/2 the purchase price is refunded, and then after 7 months, the other 1/2 is refunded. Profitable means any profit, even if $1.00. I also believe there is a $199 maint fee, but I'm not sure on that.

There is also no guarantee that they won't be out of business after 1 year. I would be more comfortable if they offered the service free for until it provided a certain % profit, and then charge the one time fee, or to charge a fixed fee based on the results. If you dont pay, then you dont continue to get the 'feed', and are still liabable for the fee, or offer several options.
I completely agree with you! There is nothing more honest than a performance based fee. I was talking to lemy about his Forex System and about how he could share in the losses of the system as well as the profits. One of the Market Wizards (please jump in here and tell me which one if anybody knows) used to do that for his Hedge Fund. If there was a losing month/quarter/year (I forget which) he would refund the commission on the loss. When someone is selling a system or running a fund based on those principals then you know that they are serious.
It took several requests to get the info on the brokerage clearinghouses that they were affiliated with. I told them that if they would not give out that information, that I would not even consider this.

I ended my 2 hour phone call with, "I need to do more research on my own" and told him I'd call him back in a few days, or that he could call me back in a few days if he didn't hear from me.

I'm still open to it, but again, need to do my own research.
You know, the one thing that would make me take claims like that seriously, would be to hear from an independent broker that a client using just the neogen system took their account from X to Y. Or even just find out the % returns that their clients were getting and have those confirmed by the brokerage that handles the clients' accounts. There should be no problem with confidentiality because if a client is prepared to let them publish their results then there is no problem with that client being known by a codename at the brokerage and you calling to confirm the returns. You need not discover who the client is but at least the brokerage has confirmed the results and the system used to achieve those results.

There is an obvious conflict of interest and no liability from someone trying to sell you a system. This is why the metrics about car performance is calculated and reported by independent third parties and not the manufacturers. Why would you not expect the same verifiable performance from the seller of a trading system?
exactly. The funny thing about it is .... part of the sales pitch was that 'all they ask is that we give a testimonial' after your first 7 months of being a customer. I then asked well, what about testimonials from other customers. He went on to say that they wont give out the names of other customers, because they've had complaints from their 'customers' who received phone calls from random potential customers and didn't want to be bothered, or that the potential customer could not be assured that the person they gave as a referral was an actual customer.. so the idea of references was not something they could really do. I can understand this from both sides of the coin, but what confuses me is why they asked for a testimonial from me as a customer if they weren't going to give me testimonials from other customers...

anyhow. anything like this is risky. it sounds good, almost too good, and you know how that goes.... if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

Their 'track record' shows some losses, but again, that could be fabricated. The entire thing could be fabricated. This type of business is tricky, because what you're selling is risky, and it's difficult to provide solid numbers if you're not the actual broker, and then there lies the issue of privacy of a customer's account.

The font on their website is a bit goofy looking. It doesnt look very professional, and I certainly wouldn't have chosen that for the website.

Their 'purchase' option on their website points to a third party secure site with a certificate. They are probably paying some third party site to host a secure page for them. One would think that if a company would fork out the $700 bucks for their own certificate instead of paying some third party to host a "secure" webpage. Certificates range in price depending on the type of certificate. This isn't a site that takes credit card #'s, so the cost of their own cert wouldn't have been that much. You would think that if they've got hundreds of clients who all forked out $5-6000, that they would have no problem spending a small amount to have their own website certificate.

80% of the sale would be won by the vendor (any vendor, not just Mind Engines) if they could provide an independent disinterested third party that you trusted to corroborate the results.
I got another call from the salesrep at MindEngines tonight. High high pressure to commit to buying their system. I finally had to hang up on the guy while he was talking because he just wouldn't let up.

It's people like that that discourage me from buying anything. If it's such a good thing, then he shouldn't be so high pressure. He kept asking what it would take for me to buy, 'given the fact they have a money back guarantee'. After I told him about 3 times that I needed more time to think about it was when I had enough and ended the call.

I wonder if their money-back guarantee would accept some form of escrow if you, the buyer, were prepared to pay the escrow fees.

[Escrow from Wikipedia:
Escrow is a legal arrangement in which an asset (often money, but sometimes other property such as art, a deed of title, website, or software source code) is delivered to a third party (called an escrow agent) to be held in trust pending a contingency or the fulfillment of a condition or conditions in a contract such as payment of a purchase price. Upon that event occurring, the escrow agent will deliver the asset to the proper recipient, otherwise the escrow agent is bound by his or her fiduciary duty to maintain the escrow account.]

This way you don't have to worry about them going under or not honoring their guarantee.
kobvobn711: You've probably just saved several people tens of thousands of dollars.