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Carolyn Boroden, The Trading Zoo, Larry Levin

Does anyone have any expereince with or know anything about the following trading gurus?

Carolyn Boroden
The Trading Zoo <- Dedicated topic.
Larry Levin (Secrets of Traders)

Wanting a great place to learn and don't want to get taken.

Please feel free to e-mail direct at [email protected]



[Edit by day trading: Link to dedicated topic for]
Correction to last post.

After selling 1/2 position at 1 point, the stop is left at 1 point below entry.
And the initial stop is at 2 points right?

So in a randomly symetrical market and assuming that you do not need to queue for the limits you would have a 66.7% probability of hitting your first target right? Once that target is hit, the worse you can do (assuming no slippage and no commissions) is breakeven.
We may be saying th same thing but in different ways.

The intial stop is 1 point from entry. After a one point gain in which 1/2 of the position is sold, the stop is still 1 point below entry. If one got stopped after selling 1/2 of the position, the trade would breakeven.
I didn't realize that your initial stop was 1 point - I thought that it was 2.

What percentage of the time does the full stop get hit without the first partial being taken off?
10% of the trades get stopped out for a 1 point loss and another 10% get flat at breakeven (scratch). This is not a solely mechanical system--there is an element of trader discretion which is used if the entry is not ideal; the market lets us know that fairly quickly.

Performance is very good with an average daily take of 3 points per contract. Better than a sharp stick in the eye.
An average of 3 points per day per contract is definitely better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!

That is an exceptionally good entry to first target record using just 1 point on the ES.

So let me rephrase this to understand it correctly:

For each 10 entries that are taken, 9 get at least 1 partial off at 1 point and 1 gets stopped out at 1 point loss. Of the 9 trades that get a partial off at 1 point, 1 of them will subsequently be stopped out at the one point loss for the balance of contracts opened.
If what I have "rephrased" is correct, that 90% of the entries hit the 1 point target and 10% hit the 1 point stop then it sounds like a pretty solid strategy to take the whole package at 1 point and be done with it. If you can pull off 10 of those a week that's 8 points a week which is a very profitable week's trading compared to what most traders struggle with. Take off a point in commission and you're looking at 7 x $50 = $350/week for the 1 contract trader and $3,500 for the 10 contract trader.
Just to clarify everyone's thinking......

On average, out of a hypothetical 10 trades, 1 will get stopped out for a 1 point loss; 1 will break even; and 8 will reach at least a 1 point profit before a 1 point stop from entry.

Although it's not advocated by our leader, scalping, as you point out, has merit. A few of the more seasoned traders in our room do, in fact, take the 1 point profit, 2 or 3 times and say goodbye for the day. None of them, however, are trading small lots--most trade 8, 16 or 32 contracts.

For a novice like me, it's great to be among real professionals--people who can out-trade 90% of the crowd in the market and go home green almost every day. I wake up and go to sleep counting my lucky stars.
Originally posted by ahk

On average, out of a hypothetical 10 trades, 1 will get stopped out for a 1 point loss; 1 will break even; and 8 will reach at least a 1 point profit before a 1 point stop from entry.

That is still a good win ratio and a fairly phrased win ratio. Systems that tout 90% win ratios usually have larger stops than targets to allow for that.

In fact a random entry system can produce a 95% win ratio if your target is 1 tick and your stop is 10 points. Obviously this is a losing system.

How many trades have you measured this win/loss ratio over? Have you kept accurate records in a spreadsheet that give you these figures or is this a rough guess?

If I remember correctly you've been using this system for 3 months now right?
Ok AHK enough is enough....! I beleive you are a scam artist and have received permission to confront you here.....please feel free to cut and paste any or all private correspondence we have had if you feel it is needed...I will do the same. It seems that most vendors now have become more subtle and you are the wolf in sheeps clothing...I have copied part of my email to you here..( If anyone is really interested in the entire email I will post it or send it to them).it is in quotes...lets get these answered here and perhaps you can put me in my place......It seems you have plenty of time to respond here so this may be better for you.....
"Why no statements? Not one memeber including yourself can provide profitable statements..?It seems like a simple and reasonable request..Why can't you give me the name of the room or the website? I learned a long time ago that if you confront a vendor they tend to throw it back in your face as a defense..go on the "attack" a bit.....The next step is you will tell me " I am not a good fit for your room"........Think about it.."

Well I haven't heard from this person since, althought it's only been 2 they have plenty of time to post here.....

And one more question...How come you don't mention here on the forum that you get a referral fee?
In their first response they said this "I get a sense you may have unreasonable expectations and a chip on your shoulder from past experiences that cause a barrier which could impact your success." So here we go with another vendor trying to turn it back on the potential's like they all go to the same marketing school only now they send out messengers like the Multi - level-marketing folks.....This one is a shill and EliteTrader called it early let the "dance of the vendor begin" or will you just disappear....?

Originally posted by BruceM

well that will be cool AHK! I suggest that everyone should wait at least 6 months before taking the trial so they can see all those statements....and of course make sure any and all statements you receive from any vendor are reviewed by a neutral 3rd party and don't just take the brokers this case I ASSume it would be Mirus futures as they are the ones that the room suggests to trial don't rely on them only will need at least one impartial review to make it legit if you are thinking of using this vendor or any other...ok nuff said on this...thanks for getting to those questions


No problem Bruce. I would hope that anybody who receives statements directly from a broker would accept those as actual copies. I can't imagine a reputable broker engaging in a willful fraud when there is nothing to gain and everything to lose. At any rate, I'm not sure yet if the confidentiality agreement will allow for the sharing of the information with third parties who don't have a need to know.
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