the ''morning memory'' that joed tells at his site was told me a decade ago. joed lived in hawaii and invited traders to visit with the stipulation that they trade in front of him.the young man stood out...he had gann lines across chart... and a simple time indicator below... that was it... he was the best trade joed had ever witnessed....because he only did exactly what he was told to do....

how can something be so simple, yet take a life time to grasp...i will try to save you years of work...

when joed called me last year as he drove out into the desert he asked me a very direct question. can you do what you do without fib?my reply.no, once i had the complete set of fib i learned from jim kane, i was able to unlock the meaning of your work.

joed trades TIME by leaning against the geometry. the way he trades time is by watching indicators, a way that is available to all traders...divergence, both regular and hidden, unlocks the meaning of time.

the geometry, at least the part that is available to all traders, is that of the fixed levels from gann square and medianline sets.he leans against that geometry by watching time unlocked by divergence..

we as kane traders have the keys to this kingdom... a complete knowledge of jim's complete set gives you the answer to the biggest problem with trading just gann and medianlines''' why when time is right does price sometimes stop exactlty at the geometry and other times over run?''the answer lies in the fib...knowing that 1.46,..886,1.128 are fib anwers key questions on this chart.. then go back to this chart and mark out the fib at each swing and marvel at the coming together of geometry and time.

joed stresses in his work the importance of the measured move.. once i had jim's complete set of fib, my mindset was different .. based on jim's fib i look for MEASURABLE MOVES.

FOR MOST TRADERS, this way of trading is best done on the hourly and daily charts, trying to capture swings.

thus when rat showed a setup in GDX and was puzzled by its failure the answer was in TIME as unlocked by divergence,,, once time and geometry were aligned, price made its move.

the reason most traders do not grasp the sq 9 is so simple that it defies reason... they simply do not create a large enough sq!the levels on the gs chart are taken by having a sq in thousands so that 166.10 in price is 1661 on sq.most sqs you see as teachingtools stop in the low hundreds...

Great series, roofer. Really nice, one of my favorites.

As an aside, I had a curious thought/question. I'd have to detail a few things to explain it. Keep in mind, as a way of a disclaimer, all I am going to say is just my opinion, and not a claim of any kind. As I've gotten better over the years with my methodology, I have developed a lot of 'feel' for where the Fibs I watch will fall, and where the lines are. I can kind of see where everything will be before I put it on my charts.

I'm not perfect at it, but I feel I'm usually remarkably close. Hence, I feel, I could 'trade naked', with nothing but a price chart, and just 'see' the areas in my mind, lines, Fibs, everything. It's there on my chart, even if the chart is blank. I just don't need to draw any more if I don't want to. Let me give an analogy.

When I grew up, my mom was a big Bingo fan, put on by all the local churches, at least one every night. As a child, I went a few times. I was fascinated by the one or two people at every event who played an entire slew of cards, like up to twenty cards, with zero chips! Every card blank, each with maybe 10 or 15 numbers or more called out, on twenty different cards, and they just 'knew' which numbers were covered, and which patterns were present. They 'knew' when they had a Bingo, with no numbers covered! Amazing. This is what I mean on the chart. I can kind of do that.

Now, to my thought. I was just wondering, if I had been one of the traders to show up at joed's, and traded in front of him off a blank chart, what would have been his reaction? I don't mean would he be impressed, as I'm sure he would not have been, I mean, would he have been unsatisfied since he would have been able to discern little to nothing from what I was doing, or did he mostly just want to see that the person actually could trade?

I'd think his purpose was mostly to learn how the person actually traded, and to get almost nothing from them would have left him unhappy with the exchange. If one watched everything I did with all my work on the charts they would learn a great deal about what I do and how I think. On the other hand, if I did it like those Bingo players, and did it all in my head, I doubt they'd gain any insight at all. I was curious, as nothing more than conjecture, what you think his reaction at that time might have been to that? Just a thought, for fun.

jim - i do not understand the point of your post. if he had invited you , it would be because he had read and studied and memorized every detail of everything you had ever written. as was true of everyone else he invited..if you were then able to trade your work without marking your charts, i am sure he would be in awe.again.as far as the bingo example , there are many people who can easily remember series of hundreds of numbers... for those people,remembering a small series of numbers in one round of bingo would be child's play.

Hmmm, I guess I don't have a point??? Sometimes I know when I make a post I shouldn't make it because it could be too easily misconstrued. This was one of those posts...

I guess when I read your post, and his post, I didn't get the impression that the mentally challenged child had an extensive series of work that joed had studied. Again, here is where I get confused, and hence the question. Did he feel that even after studying the extensive work of these traders that he still couldn't quite 'see' how they traded, hence he would only invite them if they would do it live so he could see it happen in real time, and hence truly grasp the way they traded? If so, that tells me something of very important value to me.

For example, I can grasp pretty much every technique you have shown in your posts and what we have exchanged over the years. There hasn't been anything I have seen that I feel I don't understand. Yet, I would love to watch you trade live. I can't do what you can do with the tools as you use them. If I wanted to, no matter how many charts I have done, I couldn't. But, if you answered every question I had after watching you trade live, I would bet everything I have that I could pretty much do it. There are things missing that I need to trade that way. Kind of like how you say you can't see an adjusted set in real time. I can say with what I feel is essentially 100% certainty that if you watched me trade, you'd see them in real time with ease.

So, if joed felt the same way, he got the gist of what the trader was doing, but just couldn't do it fully, and if he watched them he felt he could fully grasp all the nuances that are needed for the approach, that would tell me something very useful for me. Why I can't trade your way, and why I'd maybe need to see you (or anyone else with their techniques, as I find this with any traders I've studied) trade live to do that. Then I'd understand why he'd invite them, and that I was more 'normal' in what I struggle with to trade other trader's ways (as opposed to just taking elements from their work if it integrates and improves mine, as I have done so far).

I was also curious if he wanted to verify the trader's techniques actually worked in real time, live. If that was or was not important to him, could assist me greatly. I frequently study traders who seem to have great techniques, but I can't make them work in real time, in a live situation. They make great posts, many even before the fact, but I find things about what they are showing that make me wonder if they really trade, and can really do it consistently in real time. Perhaps joed can always tell if this is the case with any given trader's work. I can't. I mostly can, but not always. So, knowing if seeing the 'proof' that the techniques can work in real, live trading was part of his motivation, that would help me going forward. Perhaps I might even make similar offers to other traders as he did.

Here's the thing. Of all the traders I have ever seen or heard about, joed would have to be the most respected, the one I'd most be in awe of (which is a funny thing, because I get the feeling he thinks I'm somewhere at the level of a Wade Cook, but please don't go off on me for saying that, it's just a feeling I get). 'He is legend', as they say. But, with all that said, he is also the trader I can understand the least. I don't mean his work, which, to the extent that he shows his work in public, I fully follow. That can only be to a small extent, though, as he doesn't show, in public, much of how he does what he does.

I mean, as far as communication and such, his manner of communication is not my manner of communication. I feel like he is speaking Russian and I'm speaking Chinese. I just can't follow. To me, a mathematical left-brainer, he talks like a philosopher who is shrouded in mystery, high on a mountaintop, a guru sitting in a lotus position. He's just too far over my head for me to even grasp his super-elevated concepts. That's truly how I see him, and have since his first posts. Just someone on a higher plane, far over my head.

I'm just a simple guy. I try to explain things as simple and detailed, with lots of words, as I can. So, it seems like this idea of having traders come to his place, he posted it, you posted it, it was out there, I wanted to understand why he did that, what his motivations were, what he was trying to get from it. One thing I have learned, you don't question joed. You do, expect your head to be lopped off.

Maybe that's because he (and people who are in the inner cricle with him) feel(s) 'How dare you question me/him', I don't know. But, if someone is going to post publically, I feel any reasonable question is okay to ask. I think, though, some would think it offensive to ask what his motivations were for inviting the traders, what he wanted or expected to get out of it. And I think I can learn more from that (for me, for what I need right now for my own trading) than I could get from him teaching me his most secret Gann stuff.

Every trader reading this would prefer the Gann stuff. We all need what we need. I have a lot of techniques right now. I'd prefer to know why he asked the traders and what he wanted to get out of that. If it was nothing more than having some fun with some other traders, that tells me something. I want to understand the mind of joed, perhaps one of the greatest traders of all time, and this would help me.

I think, of all the things I have ever tried to learn in this world, perhaps the thing I understand the least of everything is 'the mind of joed'. I think I actually know more about how the universe started than I know about the mind of joed. You may wonder why I even care, but honestly, he is the most talked about super-trader in the small ML circle compared to what is available as far as his work, of anyone. And he waxes on philosophical all the time, in cloaked, hard to understand (for average-brained guys like me) phrases and such.

I try to grasp his way of thinking, his trading style, and I come up totally empty. You have the advantage of hearing his musings knowing all about his techniques, his inner thinkings. I don't. I can tell you right now, 'The system is the trader' means a lot more to you than everyone else, given what you know about his methodology and way of thinking. His post on 'wisdom', again, great if you understand him, not so useful if you don't. The background is missing.

So, what is the point of my post? To bring additional clarity and usefulness, for me, to joed's posts. To attempt to get from the posts that which would help me. I can see if he wanted to go off on me over at Tim's if I asked him any questions, or at his blog. But, in my own forum, after all I have done here for everyone, I feel it isn't unreasonable to ask questions that I feel would be relevant for me.

After all, I have tried to answer 100% of the questions I have ever got in this forum, in detail, as honestly as I felt I could. For me to feel it is inappropriate to ask questions in my own forum, well, that doesn't work for me. The point of the bingo analogy was to make it simple to answer the question, was his motivation:

1) To grasp the subtleties of the techniques used by the traders which otherwise couldn't be grasped from charts studied

2) To see if the trader actually could trade the techniques live with real money

3) A combination of the above

4) Something else

I have a bad, bad feeling here, though. I will express it, at the risk of this getting out of hand. If asked the above questions, I would simply answer them. Look at my posts, thousands of them. Have you ever seen me get offended by a question, or ignore one? Of course not. I think all questions are worthy of answers. If there is a question I don't want to answer in a public forum, I would say so, and explain why. It's really quite simple. I'm not obsessed here with getting an answer, I'm trying to explain to everyone how I run this forum, how I think, what I feel is fair. I can't do it with any less words or detail than I have just done.

The bad feeling I have, though, is that this question won't get answered, it will spiral out of hand, the question may come up about why I am so obsessed with getting an answer (I'm not, truthfully I could care less in this case, I just don't want questions to go unanswered in the forum, it doesn't seem right, when after all we are trying to create a learning environment here), and roofer may get mad at me and take off (I hope not). Now, we wait and see what happens...

P.S. Yes, I can almost as easily trade my charts naked, I frequently do, and as you said about the Bingo players, it's wholely unimpressive. So is my trading the charts naked. Not a big deal, not even a small deal. The whole thing there was to just simplify the question as to when he observed them did he care to see how the trader would trade, or if they could trade. There was no intention to make it sound like I thought trading my methodology naked after 37,000 hours of screen time was any more impressive to me than chewing a piece of gum.

On the other hand, I've only seen a few players do that at Bingo (it was usually the same ones at every place), and that impressed me. I used to amuse people by memorizing a 150 digit random number they wrote down, in very short order. It was easy for me. Yet, I was never able to come remotely close to doing one Bingo card. So, I guess I overestimated how impressive doing twenty cards was, for just an unknown, 'average' person in a no-name town, like these people were. It was all irrelevant, I just like to write and tell stories that make my posts interesting to the readers. I should learn to just do one-liners, like most everyone else. It might keep me out of trouble. Then again, I'm always trying to not be like everyone else...

And here's the reply anyone except Crazy Jim would have given:

Oh, my point, roofer, was that I was just wondering if he was more interested in knowing how they traded, or if they could actually trade it live. That's all.

jim- i do not know what joed thinks of your work.i do know he respets my work. which i have told him time and againis not possible without your work. your work made it possible for me to grasp what he was doing. as for you not being able to see what i do in real time.. of course not... joe tried for 3 years to get me to see his way... i still can't and no longer try....i simply took the time to make the post to help those that might look at joed's site get an idea where he will go with it....he said not a word to me about starting a blog.. one day last week i got email saying check this out.

the father of the mentally challenged man was the one joed was expecting to trade.he had spent a lifetime on his work.. he then distilled it to its essence so that his son could support himself. by pushing some buttons.

'' the back ground is missing''' you are correct there...during the time of tim morge's 2001-2 forum and in earlier forums joed was a very active participant and instructor, sharing what he was doing...but some things happened and he left the public side of the internet back then..... i think he just wants to make another attempt..if any trader is able to suspend the way he thinks and can look at a few thousand charts ( not 10 , not 20,, jim you and i both know those kind) in the light of what i took the time to show, joe's work may be seen....

Okay, well, I'm not exactly sure what to do here at this point. I know one thing for sure, all this has to end here. We need to get back to discussing and showing charts and trading related material. I do not want anyone leaving because they think this is a Kane Trading only forum. I don't want this to be any excuse for roofer to say he's leaving now because he doesn't belong here.

Let's get back on track, and keep doing what we have been doing lately. It's been great, and it is going to stay that way. This is not 'out there', and it isn't going to devolve into that. It hasn't in all these years, and won't now. I am going to lock this topic down, no more posts. Any desire to further this topic must be done via personal correspondence (which I strongly advise against). Any other topics opened or comments on this will be deleted, and I won't be happy with those who started them, or continued them. I'm sorry if this leaves anyone feeling cut off, or anything like that, but this direction gets squashed right now.