the ''morning memory'' that joed tells at his site was told me a decade ago. joed lived in hawaii and invited traders to visit with the stipulation that they trade in front of him.the young man stood out...he had gann lines across chart... and a simple time indicator below... that was it... he was the best trade joed had ever witnessed....because he only did exactly what he was told to do....

Sorry for that post, roofer, it was rhetorical, and it didn't come across that way. I more meant, for the average reader in here, how did he create those? (He took the Feb low, reflected it straight up from the Nov high price level for the start point, locked his line on the Nov high and so on.) Basic Gann fan stuff, but stuff I'm sure most in here don't know how to do. Probably they should just do their studies and figure it out for themselves.

I just always want to explain things, perhaps before people do the work they should do. I guess that goes back to when I started no one was there to help me, and my questions always went unanswered. So, like a mother hen, I jump up too fast to act like the question answerer I wish I had had back then. Like in here, we try to explain everything in fine detail. With joed, you have to think a lot, and have the background.

You know that when you mention that his yellow dots are time of day points, unless someone knows how he came up with them, they are all thinking, okay, cool, how do I do them so I can use that for my work? But, I guess that is for each person to figure out on their own, and if they can, good for them, and if not, keep studying. And if you do figure it out, keep it to yourself, because others need to try to figure it out for themselves, or not.

I will try to keep that in mind with joed's work going forward, knowing that is the way he presents things, the way he wants it. I won't make any comments on his yellow dots. I hope this post isn't taken in a bad way, I just wanted to explain where I was coming from.

ah we are all caught in the web of trying to decide what to show and not to show. what to teach.. what to call

prop....what to charge and what to charge for....what to reference, what not to reference.you privately mentor students. you charge them a fair price... but it still irks when you reference stuff you have only shown in your private work in the open forum...but then 2 of my very best traders that are ridiculously responsive to the the work will never see the light of day in any forum.joed is on his own path.. perhaps he intends to start a for fee service...when joed coached me he gave me nothing... he did not say'' step by step, this is how i do it''he would give me stuff and ask me what i saw... i had to come up with the indicator set on my own....at your kanetrading you showed alot of great stuff... at his blog joed is showing alot of great stuff.but you saved your really good stuff for the books and private forum... i would guess that is what joe will do... but then you save the best of your best for your mentor students... joe might do the same...i see no contradiction in this...

Yeah, it's a tough call, roofer. I can see why it would irk some that I make reference to things that only mentor students know. I really need two forums, one for book set buyers and one for mentor students. Some of the things I show mentor students, they sign an extensive multi-page non-disclosure agreement with me before I reveal these things. At most a few people per year do this. My concern is that I truly feel my perceived edge may be diluted or lost if it gets out there.

Most of your stuff, like Scott over at Harmonic Trader, you feel it would not effect your edge no matter how many knew it. I can't say if that is specific to your work or if I'm just wrong, but I am concerned my egde, my ability to make a living trading, may be compromised. So, I only reveal it to a few and only under legal agreement. It has nothing to do with them paying me, only the number of people involved.

So, when I have a teachable moment for those students in the forum, I hate to pass it up. I need to let them know there is something there they must look at and be sure they see it. Otherwise I'm catering to book set buyers only, and not helping the mentor students, most of whom find the work in the forum quite rudimentary. Again, two separate forums would be better, but that's not feasible. So, that's my reasoning. I wish I felt showing everything in public would never dilute my edge, and then I could just post it all free somewhere, and leave it at that.

As far as the step-by-step, yeah, that's a personality style. I teach like I wish I could have been taught, and that's clearly spelled out, step-by-step, and then I'll see what I can do with it. I do some 'guided discovery', but mostly I lay it out. I make them think somewhat, but I find most can't make the leap with so little information, and just give up. Many, perhaps, could have done well at it. So, I decided I'd rather spell it out than have most not have a chance.

If I thought making them make more leaps on their own was a selection process for the most able to actually do it I would do it that way, but I concluded some of the very best may be getting left behind. So I do it the way I do. Each teacher decides how they want to teach. I can't say my approach is any better than any other, only that many have said they like how I do it, and I like how I do it, so that's enough for me, I guess. Good post, roofer.

I haven't posted in a while but I felt compelled to comment.
First, perhaps because each individuals have their own intellectual makeup, their own social upbringing, their own trading education history, that it is more or less easy to grasp someone else's work. The way it is conveyed/showed also matters. Some will get it some won't. But knowledge cannot be forced upon anyone. It has to 'appeal' to a person's mind, almost subconcsiously, in order to absorb new information...Maybe Joed is in his own world when he states his ideas that only a few who can 'relate' to his trading experience can fully understand. His ideas have merit, I believe, but to the extent that it is only useful to a limited audience of those who share common perception of his world. Same may apply for Jim's or Roofer's audience.
In my personal experience I can say that I relate to Jim's work and way of thinking. It is not to say I dismiss Roofer's or Joed's work.Far from it. Just that it is what works best for me and me only.
I have since developed my own trading style, my own 'system', my own proprietary concepts and my own unique tools tailored to my own trading 'world'...I am now to the point where I very sparingly use any geometric tools, or any fib combinations. I just see things in a simplified way. I have worked on 'purifying' my trading screen. Everything comes together when it wants to come together and I'll execute the plan right then. No anticipation needed, no unecessary confusion. Things just flow naturally because it is my OWN design. I have nothing to sell, nothing to gain or loose by revealing my methods. Nothing to prove, neither. I'm not in this for glory or fame. I respect everyone's efforts to share their work around and it is a blessing to have people like Jim and Roofer pound the table for us. I do not know Mr Joed personally so I won't comment on his status in the trading pecking order. But his motives are clear to me when I read Roofer say he needs to see people trading live realtime. I don't know about anybody else but if it were me, It would help me pick my students. Those I would see do fine would be shown the door with a handshake and the struggling ones I'd offer to help them...for a price $ haha. Easy cash I suppose...just speculation though..maybe Joed is just one of those few selfless person with a golden heart willing to help anyone...but If you truly want to help, you should have your own non-profit charity/foundation...Not a half-measured landing hand with vague philosophical inspirational poor dad rich dad type of help. Create an audience that will listen to you, not an audience that will challenge your theories, and you will certainly rip handsome benefit$, vendor style if you see what I mean.
...I'll post some more later... there action on my charts right now...
T

t- you come on the forum and make long comments only in response to what i take the time to post... that is your right... then you comment on other peoples motives without taking the time to think through what they have said... if you had read and thought through why joed wanted to see people trade in real time you would not have said he was looking for students; he was looking for a teacher.you judge us ; but then you refer to some amorphous way you trade that you can not show us because it is proprietary.. as i have said before, there is only one thing that bothers me in the trading world.. those who have the time and energy to criticize others but contribute nothing.. as aristotle said'' they who are to be judges must also be performers'' we all would welcome the insghts of such a skilled and knowledgeable trader...joed is doing his best to show what and how he is thinking... i do the best i can here showing what and how i was thinking... how about some contribution instead of long judgemental comments..

actually, in the end, t and joed trade alike.... they are way past the lines.. way past the geometry.... but to grab people's attention you have to start somewhere... so at his blog, joed is starting with the lines.. as i have communicated to jim in private, i do not have the slightest inkling why joed even started a blog...and as long as i have known him joed has always been a combo of the sacred and profane...
for years joed would get angry that i would publicly show my best work... i would say this.. there are two sides of the fence.. on one you have great work, but you keep it private and do not comment on others work... you have my respect... on the other , you have great work and you share it, knowing that your work is defended by the public's disregard for things shown free.but then there is a third option... straddling the fence....no one appreciates someone who stands on the fence saying how good their work is , commenting on others work, but then contributing nothing to the discourse..
a few weeks ago in the public forum i commented on a bullish post by saying my work was bearish and said i would return with a teaching post if my work proved correct... it did and before i could post jim posted something to the effect that i was correct.. all hell broke loose...of course it did....we here all know the power of the work.. to anyone who asks, i say i can not do what i do without a knowledge of jim's work...but i think jim's commenting was a mistake.. without showing his reasons at the time of post, jim put himself in the position, at least in the public's eye, of straddling the fence with all the hucksters. jim is in a no win situation.. he IS running a commercial operation...in that light,ANY comment is going to be taken by the public as a shill.. it simply comes with the territory of the trading world...
in the end it is a matter of commenting skillfully... i can show my best work publicly because i know this... i do not show in public how i know my work will fail... that is a very important concept that i save for private in this forum..am i straddling the fence in my own way? probably.

Very good comments, roofer. I almost jumped in before you commented, to 'head this off at the pass', as I knew T's post would be an issue, at least that aspect of it. But, I held off, not knowing exactly how to address it all. I do agree that T did misinterpret joed's reasons, in that he was looking for a teacher, not students.

I agree, for the most part, with your assessments. I do want to add my two cents in on a few things, though. I agree with your three category viewpoint, but with some qualifications. For example, if someone makes a serious contribution to a forum over a course of say six years, and in that time they post endless content, make almost ten thousand posts, attain the highest reputation rank of almost six thousand members, and never once in any of those posts one single time tries to hawk a product, not to mention being told by more than a few top members that he is their favorite poster on the entire forum, well, if they come in and say something without substantiation, without full explanation, I think everyone should stop and listen.

Like that old TV commercial "When E.F. Hutton talks, people listen", and the whole room stops talking and turns to listen. How many tournaments does Tiger Woods have to win (forget all the current drama) before people will listen when he talks and he doesn't have to have a golf club in his hand, ready to demonstrate? At some point, until you start proving otherwise, just opening your mouth should be enough. I think, in the public area, I was more than there. 'Vendor' or not.

If anyone spent any time studying context they'd see that my post was not a random plug without substantiation, as I explaned elsewhere. BruceM was asking for before-the-fact posts from roofer. He specifically asked for them. Not any poster asking for something from someone. BruceM asked for in advance from roofer. And he did it with the tone of roofer can't do it. Then roofer does it, and BruceM acknowledges nothing.

So, in an active thread discussing the current market situation, someone points out the market in Japan is collapsing. He doesn't comment on why this may be, or what technical things one may have seen in advance to position for this. So, in BruceM's thread, knowing BruceM asked for in advance from roofer but would not acknowlegde this request fulfillment in public, I stepped in and tied it all together for everyone.

It was a teaching moment, when people were starting to ramble on what was happening, but not seeing that the likely reasons were posted, and the opportunity for much more detail was at hand, if they could but put two and two together. I didn't think they'd need all this detail to get my point to hunt up your post and get studying. I thought my position in the forum was enough.

But the dynamics had changed out there, some people with new intents and territories had taken over, and taking out the biggest gun was part of their priorities. Just like the current economy and government, there is no place for someone who challenges your agenda, holds your feet to the fire, and tells the truth. So, in that way, I disagree that I shouldn't have posted that, or that it should have been looked at any other way than how I intended it. I wasn't new to the public area.

All this said, all should know Jim has a reason for such a long story there. It is supposed to dovetail into what I am trying to address here. But, as I have come to realize over time, my stories are too wordy for most people, and most don't grasp my points. Maybe my 'style' for explaining things is just such that only a few weirdly wired brains, like mine, can process... So, I agree that T shouldn't post comments like this unless he posts and explains what he does. I understand some things will always remain proprietary for most of us, but what about the meat of things? Here's the tie in with the above.

T has been around here for a long time, and in the past has a body of work posted here, some of it the best I have seen. To me, although he hasn't posted a lot lately, he has a 'rep' in here as one of the best, and most skilled posters. So, I take what he says in that context, like they should have taken what I said in the public area in the proper context. Just to make this clear, I will post a quick story. T doesn't know this story.

A little while ago my longest running mentor student, going on I think six years now (he keeps working with me year after year, and doesn't plan to stop as long as I'll keep teaching him), and I were talking about my books, and books in general, and the limitations of learning from books. He asked if anyone I knew of really got the 'gist', the total overview, of my methodology from the books alone. He felt it just wouldn't be possible from books alone, mine or anyone's.

I said, in honesty, I only thought one person that I was aware of, had really, truly gotten my point, and grasped the meat of the concepts, solely from the books. That person is T. I've many times commented that it's like we have the same brain, we think and see things so similarly. So, it didn't surprise me he would be the one.

That said, he started discovering and inventing his own concepts, some he shared with me via e-mail and charts. He has since spun further off and come up with his own style, likely radically different from mine. It would be cool to see where he is now, but I give credit for the posts he made in the past here, which are still on this forum, and can be studied. So, to me, he is definitely a performer as well as a judge. His comments, to me, need to be interpreted in light of who he is.

In this regard, I recall how BruceM, as he tried to defend his actions, said things like well, Jim, you don't have a rep in the daytrading threads (each thread has its own reputation now???), and you haven't posted in here very much, so I was offended you made a comment, and so on type of stuff. So, to think that T, well, he hasn't posted lately, or in this thread, or whatever, just reminds me of 'out there'. All I needed to see was it was 'T', and 'T' is in the club with the other handful in here who knows their stuff cold, has a rep, and has contributed in a serious way to this forum.

That said, everyone, myself included, must still maintain high standards of tactfulness and fairness when posting. Rep gets you the benefit of the doubt, but not the right to drift from our philosophy in here to be kind, non-inflammatory, and tactful. I think it is best not to comment too much on anyone else, and then we avoid all this. joed's blog is a great source of info for all of us in here. I know I read it all the time.

(As an aside, and this is just how I learn, I would get 100X out of it if he would post actual entries and exits, especially entries, and most importantly stops, as without that I simply have zero grasp on the entire process from a reward/risk perspective, the only way my trading brain works, but I understand with joed he shows what he shows, you're thankful for that, shut your trap, and leave it at that.)

So, any personal talk about joed (or anyone) should probably just be avoided, or kept to personal correspondence. Talk about anyone's trading technique all we want, but perhaps we just skip any more talk about anyone, why they do what they do, where they are going, what their motivations are, and so on. That way there won't be any issues coming up.

I know this is a fine line, but given joed is roofer's friend, if roofer finds out something interesting about joed, that joed is okay with roofer posting, that's fine. But let's take that as it is, and not ask a lot of questions, critique it, and so on. Use personal correspondence for that, and keep the forum for trading related stuff.

Okay, that's my 'War and Peace' length response, let's just let this one wind down. T (and everyone else), your comments are welcome, but please keep them to trading related things going forward. So, don't get scared off, please keep posting.

ok Roofer,
I can take any kind of criticism coming from you. Be it negative or positive. Nothing taken personal. I actually thank you for that.
To respond to your saying I do not show my work therefore I shouldn't comment or judge, I would say you are right. I shouldn't even participate in any discussion about trading for that matter. Let's say that I have tried and tried in the past to stir up the pot, to kick the sleepy ants mound, to purposefully have thought-provoking posts. All of that to try to bring out whatever little life there was in this forum. Unfortunately, I didn't get any response so I gave up. Why should I show my work online for all to see without anybody requesting it or simply ask basic questions? Maybe it was too basic or not clear enough or that there was just nobody caring? I don't know. But I had my limits and my time is precious to me as it should be for anyone trying to make money trading. So I then decided to devote all of my time to trading/learning rather than sharing my work around. And I don't feel one bit of regret for stopping the show because obviously I was wasting time. I am not the 'teaching' type of person.I tried to expose naked my thoughts and charts without restraint, without fear of being judged but actually expecting whoever read my post to judge my work or question my motives. Anybody can judge or criticize my work or personal opinions and I don't have a problem with that at all...I don't see why I should get offended by negative replies neither. After all, If someone is posting something it is natural for readers to make up their own judgement and express their opinions as they will. Isn't it the point to have a discussion forum? to be able to post whatever you want, be it good or bad right or wrong. Roofer,I think you shouldn't waste too much time responding to my non-sense posts. But please own your methods once and for all. Joed, Jim Kane, Tim and others are all great traders that we have learned bits from and we are grateful for their contributions but my point is that your method is still uniquely yours no matter where you acquired the root knowledge because you have made it work for your own purposes. To mention Joed or Jim within your shown techniques serves only to deflect ownership of your own work, why is that?...that diminish the relevance of your work I think. To give them credits is the gentleman thing to do but your whole body of work is unique to you. But of course it is your choice to type their names as it was my choice to voice my opinion in a public manner, be it right or wrong. Yes I made a judgemental comment then. I made a post I probably shouldn't have made because you said I don't show my work therefore I shouldn't comment. but I still did it anyway. No shame however lame it was to you.
But because you said so doesn't mean it is law. Now I can see why there are a bunch of silent members in here that never post and will never ever post anything because they are gonna get blasted for saying or questioning something without exposing their work.
Why should they talk then? challenging one's method or motive is blasphemy? what kind of forum is this? To remind you, Jim has created this forum to discuss HIS KANEtrading mehtods with topics relating to the techniques HE wrote about in his books.But he allows plenty of freedom to talk about other people's work. Joed is an outsider to me, no matter how much you worship the guy, his work is his and belong in his own forum, not Jim's. If I want to discuss Joedinapoli's work then I'll go to his forum at his website and his followers post/share over there. If I want to expose my work then I'll come up with my own website/forum to discuss it...Jim is your friend, i know, he let us have the liberty to discuss any topics in a civilized manner but this is still Jim Kane's forum for discussing Kanetrading material.
You talking about how great and super of a trader Joed is does not make him untouchable. I respect his work as I respect yours, Jim's or anybody that has something to share. But If he is so great why does he need to look for a teacher? aren't his skills not sufficient enough to evolve on his own? If Joed's a supertrader, his teacher should be a superMasterGod trader then right? oh yeah those kind of masters can be found off-the-streets by the dozen. Why should I waste my time trading on my own when I can be hired by Joed to teach him how to make money trading ?!? is it too much to question what his motives are?
I'd go to his place, trade in front of him, let him judge my talents, prove to him that I am the best of the best then forget my pride let's beg him to become my student. sounds like a plan. Hey Jim, I love your work why don't you come over my place so I'll check you out trading live to see if you are worthy of being my teacher. Oh yeah I'm clueless by the way...
Somehow, the way he's trying to recruit a teacher doesn't make sense to me.That was the point of my previous remarks about what's been said about Joed and I stated that it was just speculation on my part. No hard proof of anything.But as the perpetual conspiracy theorist that I am, it is just MY own opinion and it doesn't really matter anyway because I shouldn't be posting at all. I really don't care if anybody misconstrues my posts as being mean, arrogant or simply ignorant. I am expressing my point of view, however stupid it may sound, but I shouldn't be silenced just because you said so. If you don't like it then just ignore it and petition to boot me out when you can't stand it anymore.

T

Nevermind.
Please forget what I said, guys.
Let's move on.
T

Okay, well, I'm not exactly sure what to do here at this point. I know one thing for sure, all this has to end here. We need to get back to discussing and showing charts and trading related material. I do not want anyone leaving because they think this is a Kane Trading only forum. I don't want this to be any excuse for roofer to say he's leaving now because he doesn't belong here.

Let's get back on track, and keep doing what we have been doing lately. It's been great, and it is going to stay that way. This is not 'out there', and it isn't going to devolve into that. It hasn't in all these years, and won't now. I am going to lock this topic down, no more posts. Any desire to further this topic must be done via personal correspondence (which I strongly advise against). Any other topics opened or comments on this will be deleted, and I won't be happy with those who started them, or continued them. I'm sorry if this leaves anyone feeling cut off, or anything like that, but this direction gets squashed right now.