Phew, I don't know about you guys, but I am glad to close out last week's topic, despite my agreement with tomo, it was some great material.

Let's crank this week up, I think the action is going to be awesome, if last week is any indication. I'll start, like I did last week, with my bearish hopes, and my bullish realities. Of course this won't happen, but I can dream, can't I? Sometimes I think that is all I have left, the dreams. The market will never do what I want it to, as far as the bad guys. On the other hand, maybe I'll get my wish, and the bad guys will, in fact, be behind it, instead of it crushing them to dust. I recall that old saw that goes like this: 'If you bet the sun will blow up, and it does, what do you win???'

http://eminiaddict.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2012crash_001.png

that's very helpful....I tend not to trail stops, but use areas of interest as places to exit if appears there is enough about to go against me, or if my trade has moved faster than I expected...

Originally posted by roofer

i took the time and energy when asked to explain what i do.... waited for a reply for my question and got none.. so i will ask again..was there anything on the chart based on medianlines fib and abcd's that had not been shown here before and thus was knowable in advance as a potential turning point?as a practical matter as a target trader i do three things in the heat of the trading day// if i am up 10x quickly the initial risk i will cash in some chips and if price has traded to the 941 of target i will put a stop at the 886.and if i am trading the cd leg of abcd where i do not know if it will go to 886 or 1.128, i will take some off at 886.

hmmm.....

Okay, I'll answer that one. I think we are going to wind up back where we were in last week's topic. I'm not trying to scare anyone away from good discussion with my next statement, but I must make my position clear, too. Given my health and situation, if this thread devolves at all to anyone responding with any personal attacks or comments not related to the questions at hand, I am closing this forum. The next thing everyone will see is a broken link saying 'Forum doesn't exist'.

While I agree, roofer, that everything you showed is there and has been presented, for all to use, I still have problems using it. For me, real time, it turns into an event similar to what I discuss in this article:

http://www.kanetrading.com/free_art/chart.html

For me, I just don't get the high percentage results roofer gets. And that, bringing, in my estimation, over 40,000 hours of experience to the table. I am willing to bet roofer couldn't do it my way very well, even though all that is explained in the books and in various postings I have done, here and at my website. What gives? Why can't he just do it the way I do, if it has all been shown?

Because it still takes skill and a certain amount of feel and experience, and roofer has that for his approach. Nothing against roofer, I'm not making a slight to him when I say this, but I don't think he takes into account the incredible skill he has, the incredible gift he was born with for his approach, and just how many subtle things he does that he hasn't explained (because he is very likely not even aware he does them or has those skills).

So, the question is answered, but the real issue remains. If I don't point this out I feel I am doing a disservice to my readers. If I am doing them a disservice, then the point of this forum is gone. I am forced to deal with this instead of post levels or focus on my trading. But, if I am to run this forum, I must make points like this clear to my readers, or there is no point to continuing. Nothing is ever as simple or easy as presented, trust me on that one.

Lastly, based on this post, roofer does do something besides just out at target while in the garden, coming in to see how much he made that day. The techniques below, I have never seen that before in this forum. I challenge anyone to show me the past post outlining what is below. If it is there, I will stand up in here and post 'Well, there it was all this time. I'll be a monkey's uncle!' That's why I asked about trailing stops or any stop movement besides 'out at target'.

Originally posted by roofer

i took the time and energy when asked to explain what i do.... waited for a reply for my question and got none.. so i will ask again..was there anything on the chart based on medianlines fib and abcd's that had not been shown here before and thus was knowable in advance as a potential turning point?as a practical matter as a target trader i do three things in the heat of the trading day// if i am up 10x quickly the initial risk i will cash in some chips and if price has traded to the 941 of target i will put a stop at the 886.and if i am trading the cd leg of abcd where i do not know if it will go to 886 or 1.128, i will take some off at 886.

Okay, the morning drop of 8.25 came from 30.25. Oops, I was off by a tick. I'm just goofin', that was 'center of area', and I even mentioned that in the below. Now we hit 34.25, and that is 5 ticks from the center of the key area. But, given where the lines are and this small ABCD that has set up, I'd expect the odds are high it may do another push up. If not, then that was it. But, it may be headed for the next level posted in subsequent posts, as that is a monster area. We shall see.

Originally posted by jimkane

27.50 here key. Let's see. Then 30.50 center of area, then 35.50-36.00.

I can only dream, can't I? What ever happened to 'If you can dream it, you can achieve it?' Oh, yeah, it was called 'March 6, 2009'...

Originally posted by roofer

Click image for original size

I hope Jim you will never close the forum or at least if you decide to close it you will keep all old content for us to see. Beeing totally honest when I bought the books for me very important was access to the forum. So basically that would be disservice for book owners.
It is very important to look at the old topics (at least for me) and try to learn things that way.

We have like hundreds (if not more) methods of trading. I believe that we can find at least few people in any of those methods that can be consistently profitable with them. But still 90% of people using any method will loose money. Period. Why? Because IMO method is only like 5% of trading. 90% is emotions and self management. The other 5% I would say is risk management. And also there is (and Jim said so) a way of 'feeling' the method. Probably what Jim says is right ... I mean roofer probably does not explain things he does automatically which makes his method so great for him. It is like a visit at psychologist :) When you do not say few things you do not realize how important those things are. And the same is in trading.

Great traders are often very poor teachers of trading .. like in any activity. You can be a genius in trading and you may be not able to explain things to others (I am not saying roofer cannot or Jim canont I am only stating the fact). And in reverse sometimes you can be not so effective at something but your teaching is so good that others can make things work!!! Problems of many educators out there is that they think they are so smart and you are an idiot not understanding what they are talking about (also I understand that like in trading 90% of educators are full of sh ... ). Beeing a good teacher is much harder that beeing a good student.

That is it.

Hoping forum will stay forever .. Tomo

Okay, crew, you heard it from tomo. Don't blow it for him. Keep the discussions on the topics and we won't have any problems.

Okay, here's a subtle thing I want to point out once again. I mentioned this before, but I think few if any grasped it. I posted levels last night, early on. I posted levels overhead. Notice I did not say 'If it goes down, here's where I'm looking. If it goes up, here's where I'm looking'. I posted only up. I usually only post levels in one direction.

The market went right to the first level and checked back nicely. Then it went to just about the second level. Now we see what it does from here. The point is, I posted for upside, and we got upside. How often do I post a direction, and it goes the opposite direction? In my opinion, not too often. But, don't take my word for it, go back, research the posts, and come up with your own stats if you want. Note that I am posting all this in advance. My point?

It surely isn't bragging or showing off. It's to show that there must be something I am doing to ascertain the direction (assuming my posts are better than random). I am showing, again, in advance, that I feel I can use the tools to make a better than random 'guess' on the probable direction, as well as where it may head. Most who post levels post them in both directions. I am not only giving the where, I am 'committing' to the direction when I do this.

How many show things in advance and have a pretty decent track record? (I am not making a claim here, only stating my opinion). So, try to figure out why I think the direction is the way I see it.

As it is written, so shall it be.

Originally posted by jimkane

...But, given where the lines are and this small ABCD that has set up, I'd expect the odds are high it may do another push up...

I may consider that one as another 'Jim Kane saying', like 'Without 'context' you have nothing', 'For those who want to do the work', and so on.

Originally posted by jimkane

As it is written, so shall it be.

Thanks for the reply, tomo. I want to relate some thoughts. I am in no way directing this at roofer, so, roofer, please, please, please realize I'm just making general comments about forums, and how I think my forum should be.

I recall in the public mypivots forum Joe Ross used to make posts. People would ask great questions, and he never answered a single one. After awhile, if I recall the events correctly, they warned him he must answer questions if he planned to make posts showing setups, trades, and such. He didn't respond, and simply made more posts. They banned him. Now, I know Joe, and have corresponded with him. But, even with that, I agreed with the ban. A forum shouldn't be a place to just post. It is a place for discussion. If one doesn't want to explain, answer questions, and have open discussion, they should start a blog and do like 'joey-D' does, post their stuff until they are blue in the face. No explanations, no questions, just posts, take 'em or leave 'em. But, this forum is not laid out for that.

So, when anyone makes a post, they should expect questions, and should be ready to answer them. That should never lead to friction or issues. If it does, there is something 'not right'. Although I have proprietary material, and some of that is available only to those that work directly with me and sign non-disclosure agreements, all that is in the books and website commentary, and a few new things I let slip in here, it's all open for discussion in here. It's all open for discussion or questions, any aspect of the methodology.

I'm a bit constrained because, as a seller of products I can't (on advice of an attorney) discuss specific trades (none of you are so constrained). I can, though, from an educational perspective, discuss specifics of how I think the methodology applies to any given situation. So I can say I see an entry trigger here, or a scale out trigger there, or a PTA here, or whatever. If I get asked a question I will attempt to address it each and every time. I think anyone who posts anything needs to be ready and willing to do the same. If not, this forum is not the right one for them. I am not pointing to anyone specifically, it's just a general observation, and all in here should understand that.

Bottom line, this is a discussion forum, not a posting forum. We all need to feel safe and comfortable asking any reasonable and relevant question about any post, and expect a reasonable and timely answer. That's the point of the forum, that's what we are all doing here, and only those that are in agreement with that philosophy should be here. Right?