Phew, I don't know about you guys, but I am glad to close out last week's topic, despite my agreement with tomo, it was some great material.

Let's crank this week up, I think the action is going to be awesome, if last week is any indication. I'll start, like I did last week, with my bearish hopes, and my bullish realities. Of course this won't happen, but I can dream, can't I? Sometimes I think that is all I have left, the dreams. The market will never do what I want it to, as far as the bad guys. On the other hand, maybe I'll get my wish, and the bad guys will, in fact, be behind it, instead of it crushing them to dust. I recall that old saw that goes like this: 'If you bet the sun will blow up, and it does, what do you win???'

http://eminiaddict.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2012crash_001.png

and here is one you have not seen before... because i have archived less than 1000 examples.... it is a quirk of this setup that price will almost always reach the furthest medianline... yet rarely reach the lower lines... because of my archives i know by definition this is a target trade.

I'm debating on an idea here. That is, when I'm fighting not just closing the forum. I think I am going to create a separate topic each week where I'll post my levels, ideas and thoughts, and that topic will be closed to all postings except my own. Those that want to follow what I have to say can simply read that. As they say in computer lingo 'Read-only'. The regular topic(s) can proceed as usual. I will monitor them as a moderator, to make sure the rules are followed and that no one is mistreating anyone. Other than that, everyone can just have at it and post away.

If you have a question about something I posted in my section you can send me an e-mail (I prefer this over the PM for the forum), but understand I don't have a lot of energy to be addressing a lot of things, so only e-mail if it is really an important question to you. Let's try this out for awhile.

Decision made, here's where I will be posting from here on:

http://www.mypivots.com/board/topic/7526/1/jims-closed-trading-discussion-week-of-10-14-12-to-10-19-12

Problems solved.

As a bystander, I honestly don't understand what the hubbub is. From my limited view where I can really and truly understand and use just a piece of either jim's teaching or roofer's teaching, I get something out of both and in fact sometimes they seem to be telling me similar things.

I don't understand how this is really off topic, but if it is ok. For those of us who are looking to learn from all who are more advanced I don't see how it serves.

It is very sad to read this thread, and I would prefer to see a vigorous discussion of how the methods overlap and where they differ. But that's just me, and it's not my forum.

Originally posted by rat89

As a bystander, I honestly don't understand what the hubbub is. From my limited view where I can really and truly understand and use just a piece of either jim's teaching or roofer's teaching, I get something out of both and in fact sometimes they seem to be telling me similar things.

I don't understand how this is really off topic, but if it is ok. For those of us who are looking to learn from all who are more advanced I don't see how it serves.

It is very sad to read this thread, and I would prefer to see a vigorous discussion of how the methods overlap and where they differ. But that's just me, and it's not my forum.

I'm all for that discussion, rat. Now, when you can talk roofer into saying 'Sometimes targets are the right approach, for certain trading styles and situations, and sometimes trailing stops would be a better approach.' then we will be where you are saying. I say both styles have their merits, and everything in between is all workable. But, unless I am mistaken, and I don't want to put words in roofer's mouth, he is not saying trailing stops are useful. He said they take away the edge. Too bad I wrote almost 600 pages on them, then...

Maybe he meant they take away the edge on the setups and layouts he trades. That's great. But, they don't seem to take away the edge on what I look to trade, they greatly enhance it. So, if people in here are trying to do an approach similar to mine, and they read what roofer posts, and I do not address this, make is a hubbub, then what happens, invariably (because this is not the first time we have been down this route) I start getting e-mails with charts saying things like 'I was doing better, getting closer to my goals, and now all of the sudden it seems like my edge is completely gone and I'm getting hammered.' I look over the work and they switched from trailing stops to targets.

They are not trading like roofer, they are trying to trade the KT style. Take away the trailing stops and it all falls apart, in my opinion. I put it together the way I did for a reason. I wrote all those pages in the books for a reason. It was a necessary part of the methodology. Now if someone comes in and says it's not only unnecessary, it's going to take the edge away, am I to leave that alone? It doesn't fit with a target trading plan like roofer's. That's great, I'm all for that. But I don't teach that style, and it isn't part of the KT methodology. Post it, but make that clear. Say 'If you are a KT trader this will kill you.' Like they joke on TV 'Don't try this at home.'

Every time the concept of target trading comes up in here I get a flood of responses from my readers and clients about all the trouble they are now having. They don't understand that to do target trading they can not just give up trailing stops and put in targets, and leave all the rest of the KT methodology the same. They don't have the skills and experience yet to grasp what is happening to the 'Trading Plan' when they do this. To make it work they'd have to change their entry technique to one like roofer's. Change their view of 'context' (get rid of it, actually). They'd have to change how they place stops. In fact, forget adjusted sets, the basis of my work, and several new things I've added since the books. When you were done with all this, you'd be trading exactly like roofer. But, other than the patterns, Fibs, and some of the lines (the natural sets), nothing would be left of my methodology.

I think roofer thinks 90% of my methodology is pattern, line, Fib. In reality, that's maybe 10%. I've said many times the PTA is 10%-20% of the 'Trading Plan'. But as all my advanced students know, pattern, line, Fib is maybe half of my PTA. It's enough to be the PTA entirely, it's arguably all that's needed, but I have much more. But it all fits together with the entry, stop placement, 'context', management and trailing stops, as well as price action reading and much more, or it's all for naught. And I have students working very, very hard on this, and then they get wildly confused when they hear things like 'trailing a stop will only take away your edge'. I can't let that stand. Hence, all the hubbub.

So, no slight to you, rat, I greatly value your contributions in here, but my job is more than just making posts, it's about making this forum work for its intended purpose, to help KT traders understand the methodology better. And to do that all this hubbub became necessary. To make it easier on all concerned, creating an area which focuses solely on the KT methodology, start to finish as I show it, was the best solution I could think of.

All is clear except the fact that probably I would not draw this fork. That is the problem. When you draw it roofer it is so 'simple'. But knowing how to draw and when to draw is an art.

Originally posted by roofer

just as i would ask of this chart.... is there anything on this chart based on medianlines, fib and abcd's that was not knowable in advance to give me the exact moment i reversed my short in FAS leaving 33 cents on the table?

Click image for original size

tomo-i could spend five hours explaining but it all flowed from this chart. abcd completing at line at confluence of 382 and 618 ..if this pattern holds then i want to be looking for long..i know in advance from my own work that for a few years the computers that run the markets rotate the BEST SIGNAL through the various index etf;s and that traders that use the methods i use MUST have a simple scan to find THE best signal as it sets up... WE DO NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE which medianline set will be used by the computers, only that they will use one..THE BEST SIGNAL is the 886 algo at completion of abcd... my scan picked it up in FAS and that is why i traded it.

tomo-one of the great gifts of modern trading is the inverse etf;s..traders of my style seeing the danger of this geometry to the bullish case cash in their chips and stand aside...

Okay, I've made 73 posts by myself in my own section. I have to be honest, I feel like I'm in an empty room, and every time I speak all I hear is the echoes. I'm not enjoying it much (even though I get very little feedback/interaction in the general forum, at least I get some, and know I could get some at any point), I have to say. Anyway, I won't be posting out here as a general rule, but as I said, my job is to monitor this section, so I am aware of all the postings.

If I can't ask a question out here and get an answer without trouble starting, I will just close the forum to all posting except mine, and leave the archive available to read, as requested by tomo. Now, let's hope this doesn't happen. I am going to try this question as an 'experiment'. I don't mean I thought of trying an experiment, I mean I'm literally afraid to even post or ask anything, so I realize the outcome here is uncertain. If I have to be afraid in my own forum, well, I just don't need that. This forum has always been great, the best I have ever seen. It must be that way, or it's outlived its usefulness.

Here goes. Very simple questions, ones that will help me understand aspects about entry and stop placement that I simply can't grasp because all I know is my way. Let's all observe the questions and think about their usefulness to all of us, and observe the answers and think about how we can all grow from the process of this forum.

What was your entry on this one? What was your initial stop? Did this stop differ because this was an insurance plan, or was it exactly as it would have been for any other play? Thanks in advance, roofer.

i bought an insurance policy based on the geometry to protect against some rogue event hitting the markets today in the vxx

Originally posted by roofer

Click image for original size

And I'm sorry, I need to ask a follow up. I could have went back and edited the original post, but this is in a slightly different vein. If I can't get a handle on this I'll just never grasp the concepts. I'm sure this has been addressed elsewhere at some time, but I simply can't find it.

I assume in this case the stop was moved to break even, so the trade was a scratch. What is your guideline to know when to move to break even? If this trade was done differently because it was an insurance policy, then please answer for regular trades, too, so I can understand how I would do this myself. Thanks in advance.

Thanks for the reply, tomo. I want to relate some thoughts. I am in no way directing this at roofer, so, roofer, please, please, please realize I'm just making general comments about forums, and how I think my forum should be.

I recall in the public mypivots forum Joe Ross used to make posts. People would ask great questions, and he never answered a single one. After awhile, if I recall the events correctly, they warned him he must answer questions if he planned to make posts showing setups, trades, and such. He didn't respond, and simply made more posts. They banned him. Now, I know Joe, and have corresponded with him. But, even with that, I agreed with the ban. A forum shouldn't be a place to just post. It is a place for discussion. If one doesn't want to explain, answer questions, and have open discussion, they should start a blog and do like 'joey-D' does, post their stuff until they are blue in the face. No explanations, no questions, just posts, take 'em or leave 'em. But, this forum is not laid out for that.

So, when anyone makes a post, they should expect questions, and should be ready to answer them. That should never lead to friction or issues. If it does, there is something 'not right'. Although I have proprietary material, and some of that is available only to those that work directly with me and sign non-disclosure agreements, all that is in the books and website commentary, and a few new things I let slip in here, it's all open for discussion in here. It's all open for discussion or questions, any aspect of the methodology.

I'm a bit constrained because, as a seller of products I can't (on advice of an attorney) discuss specific trades (none of you are so constrained). I can, though, from an educational perspective, discuss specifics of how I think the methodology applies to any given situation. So I can say I see an entry trigger here, or a scale out trigger there, or a PTA here, or whatever. If I get asked a question I will attempt to address it each and every time. I think anyone who posts anything needs to be ready and willing to do the same. If not, this forum is not the right one for them. I am not pointing to anyone specifically, it's just a general observation, and all in here should understand that.

Bottom line, this is a discussion forum, not a posting forum. We all need to feel safe and comfortable asking any reasonable and relevant question about any post, and expect a reasonable and timely answer. That's the point of the forum, that's what we are all doing here, and only those that are in agreement with that philosophy should be here. Right?