Feedback on Kane Trading products

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I noticed on another forum that someone had asked if anyone had any feedback on Kane Trading products. One of my students posted an honest reply, and even though the thread was 'dormant' for about three months since the original request for feedback, it came alive, and people came out of the woodwork, saying things like 'go away spammer', Fibonacci is worthless, etc., etc. I checked back shortly after that and the moderator deleted the entire thread.

I won't go into my detailed thoughts here on the state of most forums, other than to mention some obvious conclusions I've drawn about them after this experience:

1. If you have a positive view on anything, don't post it, because you must be a spammer. No chance whatsoever you legitimately find the material useful.

2. If you hate the material, post away, essentially no limits. Don't worry about libel or slander, the sky's the limit. Blast away. It makes good copy.

3. If it can't be verified 100%, and hence easily coded, don't bother to say anything good, because it can't be substantiated, and is hence useless. Obviously, then, there is no merit or value in anything discretionary.

4. There is no place on any forum for anything that is ever sold, only free material. If it is ever sold, any mention is spam and you are part of the conspiracy. Besides, no one who is any kind of a good trader would ever sell anything, they would give it away, so it's an automatic 'open season' sign if anything positive is posted for anything that is sold, and that behavior is encouraged.

Now, the purpose of this thread is to have an area were those who have direct experience with Kane Trading products i.e. full book set buyers and mentor students, can post comments they feel may help others make informed decisions about the products, and whether the products may be of use to them in the development of their own 'Trading Plan'. Everyone should understand that people will be posting their opinion, and it is a forum for Kane Trading, so take it all with a grain of salt.

Please don't make a post here if you don't have direct experience with the methodology. If you've read a few free commentary on the website and have some inborn hatred of Fibonacci, or median lines, or any technique, don't post and say Fibonacci is useless, or whatever. This thread is for those that want feedback from people who have direct experience, not people who have preconceived notions and no direct experience with this specific methodology. Let's try to make this a useful resource, one of many a person should use, to attempt to make an informed decision. Thanks.

Good delineation of topic Jim.

I can certainly kick off the questions to some of your established students if they have the time to provide an answer. I would love to hear from one or more of your students about his/her journey through trading to the point where they found your material and how your material influenced and affected their trading subsequently. A sort of short trading biography that might be on the dust jacket if they were to write an autobiography about their trading but with an emphasis on how your work came into play.

Excellent addition, DT. BTW, when I commented on my general observations on forums I was not referring to this community, which tends to be a bit better behaved than most in my experience, and quick to attack only what appears to be the obvious scammers and charletans who make ridiculous, boasting claims.

quote:
Originally posted by day trading

Good delineation of topic Jim.

I can certainly kick off the questions to some of your established students if they have the time to provide an answer. I would love to hear from one or more of your students about his/her journey through trading to the point where they found your material and how your material influenced and affected their trading subsequently. A sort of short trading biography that might be on the dust jacket if they were to write an autobiography about their trading but with an emphasis on how your work came into play.

I've posted my honest opinion on Jim's work somewhere else before and the result was that I was denounced as a spammer among other things... I guess it's human nature to first mis-trust and mist-treat than be open and objective. Makes me wonder if someone really showed up with a sack of gold if he would be shown the door by those very same people...
I got into trading about 4 years ago mostly via the Forex market. After having bought a couple of bad systems, tested a gazillion indicators, various automated systems and endless theories I felt like I had nothing when it came to applying them in a real trading situation. There were all kinds of tools out there, but I didn't know what to do with them and I had no faith in using them. Nothing really spoke to me. I stumbled upon Larry Pesavento's as well as Scott Carney's work who presented all sorts of 'strange' patterns. This was pretty interesting stuff, but as a beginning trader it wasn't enough for me to know how to use them properly.
I wanted something that led me to the whole picture. I wanted to learn how to see and understand the markets the way seasoned successful traders do. Of course it takes time and experience to do so, but as with everything else the best way to learn is from the people that stand above you in their respective fields.
My first aha! moment came when I stumbled upon Tim Morge's work on medianlines. With the use of medianlines something was shown that instantly spoke to me. It felt natural.
I took a couple of seminars with Tim, read his books and some of it really clicked with me, but I still felt like something was missing. It wasn't the whole picture to me. (To take music as an analogy: You know how to play all the chords on a guitar, but you don't know anything about scales and you fail to realize that chords are constructed with notes taken from particular scales...)
Subsquently I got introduced to Jim's work by some traders who also studied under Tim. I knew that Jim had done some work on medianlines as well so it seemed like a good fit.
I bought his first book 'Advanced Fibonacci Trading Concepts' and I immediately felt very much at ease with Jim's style and his way of explaining things (besides the fact that he unveils some things in this book that turn out to be quite revolutionary in my opinion and that's not an overstatement). The book suggested to me that here was someone with a natural ability to teach and explain things.
After the first book I went ahead and purchased Jim's entire book set which I can't help but say is just incredible stuff. I have not seen anybody out there who offers such a meticulously crafted body of work that really touches on all aspects of trading. Not to mention Jim's very own discoveries that are just an immense gift to anyone who gets to study it. Sometimes I am amazed that he is actually sharing it.
It's very likely that I would not be involved in trading anymore if I hadn't come across Jim's work.

Thanks mreiserer. From what you've said it sounds like your "mind type" tunes in well to numbers and ratios and this is part of the reason why you "clicked" with Jim's work. Would it be fair to say that someone with a mathematical mind or a numbers/ratio orientation would have a better chance of finding value with Jim's work?

Not necessarily. I've tuned into Jim's work, because it presents all the pieces of the puzzle. To me it's the whole package. There are a lot of guys out there who advertise a great pattern or a unique way of applying a certain indicator, but I have seen no one except Jim who goes beyond that and delves into everything else that makes a setup work. Things like context, traded management, trailing stops etc....
Fibs are important but they are only one component. There are other components that are equally as important.
I would not trade one component by itself, but everything applied together creates the ultimate confluence imo. It makes it gel. Compare it to a band if you like. If the drummer is missing, it's not the same thing...

Good analogy with the band and something that's easy to forget.

in the end,traders need an edge to survive.and that edge is useless unless it can be SEEN IN REAL TIME.i have had the great luck to be coached by some good traders.but it was not until i incorporated some of jim kane's work into my edge that clarity came easily in real time.make no mistake;jim's work requires a huge time commitment to come to know it well.even then,some of jim's work i can not see in real time, i know it,so i don't use it.on a simple level, if you only master and understand jim's work on the importance of the 1.128 and the .886 you will have a clarity you did not have before.chart enclosed.

Click image for original size

With regards to anyones products...first hand knowledge is the key.

During my trading career ( still a neophyte), I have gone to forums to enquire about example Wolfe Waves, trading products, services etc. Majority of the time, the answers given or the feedback I received was always, 3rd party. Also, they are practioners who purport to have knowledge of what you are looking for but have never taken the course...again example Wolfe WAves( a lot of free stuff on net...but not the real deal ).

The individual replying never had FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE....of the product or service...so could not be a good judge. This is probably true of Jim Kane and other purveyours.

Now regarding the chart above, it seems excellent, but I would have liked to seen this Chart on June 10 or July 21..prior to the results..with the forecast to now or till end Sept. Its like lkg at moving averages they look great after the fact...but when you see it in real time...it may cross the line and come back....so what do you do....

I have come to realize a SIMPLE system with the least amount of rules...with only price and time will make you an excellent trader. I have still a long ways to go but this is how I trade for daytrading. Actually, Time is more important than price for daytrading purposes....if you master Time...or get close to it..that is all you need...

So I cannot comment on Kanes products....and will not as I do not have first hand knowledge.

However, people garner my respect if they give forecast regarding price and time..or price and where mkt heading much before the fact....very few do...always after the fact....

So can anyone make a forecast from now till end of Dec??? Any offers from the gurus....any Andrew Pitchfork students?? Others? Anyone?

A final note. I first got introduced to commodites by Ken Roberts way back in 1994...I took no note of it...and as the years went by..1997/2000/2002 etc. I found on the net a lot of negative comments regarding him. I did buy his TWMPMM course in 1997...did nothing with it but subscribed to his newsletter ( monthly US charts with 1-2-3 top and bottom formations) till 2001 ( FEb).

I even have his Get going Seminar. Great Video..very true on life and people.

To be a great trader you have to control your MIND...as Roberts said..but very few people get it...Templeton and Buffet say the same thing in a different way...Greedy when people are fearful..this is all Psychology..noting to do with money. Example..the US dollar is in the doldrums...but it aint going to zero..and price is low...but nobody buying it..why because all the gurus and newspapers say it going lower( remember gold, oil, silver, interest rates in 2001-2003 etc)...Greedy when people are fearful....come 2009 or before..I'm sure the dollar will be up..how much I don't know...but buy low sell high( or trading sell high buy low)...John Paul Getty said it, Buffet, Templeton on and non....simple, But nobody does it.

I remember Ken telling people go long gold with options back in 200/2001/2002 but nobody did it...Now everyone wants gold...all the gurus woke up...the same guys telling u back then gold going nowhere...like oil back in 1998/99 or even 2004..go back and check the gurus..all the guys saying oil going nowhere for a long while...not one of these jokers knew the bull run..if they did they would not be gurus, but multi millionaires...

NOw, here it is...IF I HAD DONE AND FOLLOWED KEN ROBERTS WAY OF TRADING..I WOULD BE A MILLIONAIRE probably a few times over TODAY...YES...Simple but very effective....so all those guys who poo poo him on the net etc..have no idea on first hand knowledge and even if they did..did not stick with it. To become rich takes action, focus, confindence u doing the right thing, and patience.

I have all literature to prove exactly what he said would come true came true...but I did not believe it and so did not do anything with his trading method....I listened to all the naysayers with mostly no first hand knowledge who said he was a scammer. Well the guys I listened to probably were bigger losers than I was...so why was I listening to them!!!

2 keys here first hand knowledge and does the guy you buying from make money with what he's trading?! Can you go back and see if you did what he told you to do and how it worked out! A lot of course sellers out there have losing track records...how do you find out...hard question. But better to go with teach a man to fish idea then give a man fish...NO Holy Grail.

BTW, if anybody had the monthly US Charts from Jan 2001 to 2004 ( when I believed they stopped them), talking about the print version..that you could receive monthly from the Ken Roberts Co. ( US charts, marked up by Ken with 1-2-3 tops and bottoms etc) then let me know.

I am interested in purchasing this lot...only those years...I have the years 1996-Feb 2001...Now if only I did something with what he had told me.....hmmm

And its easier to get rich faster/quicker in commodities than daytrading financial indicies...Extreme mkts...watching Cdn dollar, US dollar, Wheat, Corn, Oil ( extreme low or high) with options.

That's my take...good luck in trading

pips2007,

Hmmm, I'm not quite sure how to respond. I guess I'll make a few points and leave it at that. First off, I do thank you for taking the time to write all this up. On the other hand, it is quite far off topic for the most part, and I was very specific in what I wanted in this thread. Those with first hand knowledge of my work could comment, and others could see that and use it or ignore it in their decision making process, as they see fit.

Next, apparently you don't know who roofer is, and I can understand that. He is one of the most prolific posters in the entire trading community. He posts many charts in advance, and does so routinely, as do many others, in the Kane Trading members area. Charts like the above are frequently posted in advance, as are some right now pointing to areas we are watching as things unfold. Roofer posts copiously at the Median Line forum (now Market Geometry), as well as other highly respected places, and is considered by many as the best poster out there, bar none. I feel his contribution to free forums is unparalleled out there. I think anyone familiar with his work would agree, and he's been posting longer than most of us have been trading. He's the creator of the now world-famous 'Trader's Dream' you see on NQoos.

Next, forecasting, in my experience, has little, or even nothing to do with trading, which is a probability game. You can read the free articles I have on my website, for example 'The Myth of Predicting the Market' ( http://www.kanetrading.com/free_art/predict.html ) to get an idea why. I frequently say that perhaps only 10%-20% of my 'Trading Plan' is the PTA (potential trade area i.e. 'the setup'). What I look for is an area of interest, where I see how price behaves, and then I make a decision if I want to take an entry trigger. Again, please see my free article mentioned above for details on this.

I'm not sure what you mean here:

"The individual replying never had FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE....of the product or service...so could not be a good judge. This is probably true of Jim Kane and other purveyours."

The point of this thread is for only those that specifically do have knowledge of the products to post. If I don't recognize the person by their handle, and they aren't a member of the private forum for full book set buyers and mentor students, I will delete the post or so note it. That's no guarantee the person is who they say they are, but that's the guidelines for an acceptable post here. It is a public forum, though, and I can't watch it every minute, so as I said, take it all with a grain of salt. Nonetheless, as I just said, if I see a post and I don't recognize the person I will deal with it.

I'm worried this topic may begin to degrade, and since the point is to create an area where those who have bought the books and even mentored with me can voice their opinions, if it does start to get off topic, I will just close it to people who aren't members of my private area, which, I suspect, was what I should have done from the start. I just wanted people to be able to ask questions of the posters, and allow them to answer if they wanted to, and have some good give and take. I'll see how this goes from here.

quote:
Originally posted by roofer

in the end,traders need an edge to survive.and that edge is useless unless it can be SEEN IN REAL TIME.

That's just so well put, Roofer.
I never understand those people who are looking for someone else to forecast what may or may not happen. Isn't that what you're supposed to figure out for yourself when studying to become a trader??
Jim has given me the best tools I could imagine, all else is up to me..

Hey, Bruce. I'm still around, I just haven't been posting in the public area much. I'll send you an e-mail with some details. I mostly post in my private area, where I'm posting many times on an average day. I'll use the same e-mail address I have for you. If that one isn't still good, let me know.

As for the above post, all I can say is that writing style is just how Nick writes, and I don't think he meant anything strange by it. I 'met' Nick a long time ago over in Scott Carney's Harmonic Trader chat room when he had that and I was active over there. He follows my work, too, and shows up from time to time, as his schedule allows. He sends me charts here and there, showing things he is looking at. I consider him fully 'legit'.

I may consider just deleting off this section, so no one will wonder anything about anything. I don't need any new 'business', and don't need to advertise looking for any. There is enough on my website for those that are interested to make a decision if they want to study my work. It's just something that 'runs in the background'. If someone finds the website by doing a targeted search (the only kind of buyer I'd want anyway), great. Otherwise, no problem, it's there waiting.

As I've said before, the mypivots audience are not the kind of traders who would be interested in my work anyway. I only have forums here because Guy offered them to me way back. And I only started this thread because someone over at Elite asked, legitimately, if anyone had any experience with my work, and I stumbled on that and it had gone unanswered. I asked a few of my students to make honest comments there. The firestorm that started within minutes was beyond comprehension. The entire thread was pulled shortly after that.

So, I figured if someone was doing a search for comments on my work, at least they could find this thread where I wouldn't allow that kind of shredding. Not because I have an interest in the postings, but because I would never allow that kind of behavior in any thread in a forum section I had. At least people can post their opinions as they see fit here. But, even that looks to perhaps be an issue. Like I said, I know what I have found, I know what I present in the books, I know what I show to one-on-one students, and I know I have presented more than enough for people to make a highly informed decision on all that. I don't need to do anything here to 'hawk for business'.