Does anyone really make money trading futures?

Does anyone really make money trading futures?

I am just wondering.

I know I don't. I have tried all the indicators and the chat room gurus, and none of them make money.

I have a suspicion that a lot of the chat rooms for emini trading are just for hobbyists and market enthusiasts and not for serious traders trying to make a business out of trading.

For any new traders out there please be very cautious of paying anyone to mentor you or signing up for training or a chat room. From what I have seen the only people making money in these deals is the mentor, the chat room owner or the author of the training manual.

I would love to hear from you if you are a successful trader making 20% off your account or better over the past year. I know only 5 to 10 percent of traders are supposed to be successful, but I am beginning to think that zero percent of traders are successful over the long haul. Certainly anyone can have a streak of luck and rack up a few good months where they dramatically increase their account size, but these people are normally big risk takers and eventually they blow out their accounts by taking the exact same risks that help double their accounts in the first place.

Thanks in advance for any response.

quote:

---

Originally posted by reese1017

Hello again,

Though I was mentally prepared for some of these replies, I have to admit it still amazes me how skeptical some people are.

I believe I was upfront about being associated with hunterone and the reason of not having posted previously. Sure, you have the right to suspect that I have no credibility ... in the end, nothing I say or do will prove that I have no hidden agenda. I was trying to give hunterone support, as he has provided me with his time and expertise.

Yes, I paid for his time and mentorship and no, I did not ask for statements (though I understand vodoo's quest for statements).

Why did I choose to pay? A multitude of reasons but here is just one: hunterone spent years 'perfecting' a methodology that has been successful for him; why shouldn't he ask for compensation for his time and effort both past and present for training and teaching me and his other students?

Again, I understand why some of you are skeptical and wish you great luck in the pursuit of your goals.

---

Reese,

I have a couple of questions for you and you can chose to answer, if chose not to answer please tell fellow, forum members with a post that you chose not to answer and then all will know where you stand. Please try to base you answer's with real time trades, not hypotheical ones.

Are you profitable with Hunterones system?
Did you purchase the system from what you heard in the chat room?
How many trades are you avg. a day?
What is the avg. profitable trade per contract?
What is the win percentage that you are achieving?
Did you sign a contract, of no recourse against him?
What is the learning curve that Hunterone, said it will take to learn his system?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimkane

Here's what I see happening. Tell me what you think. hunterone takes you up on this and posts some great teaching examples every day. Really nice work showing the what's and how to's of his methodology. And the first response post will read: 'Nice after the fact examples. Now show us something before the fact. Anyone can show charts for what has already happened...' In my opinion, it's almost impossible to teach via forums without more problems than it seems worth. I'm really surprised he stuck around as long as he did. It really makes me feel bad how it always seems to go in forums...

---

Jim,

For Hunterone, it doesn't really matter what the result of his teachings are. It is not a selfless act. Hunterone gains from the act of teaching. He becomes more profitable from teaching and answering questions so his incentive to do this is that it boosts his bottom line.

I'm not critical of you but I wanted answers that never came...perhaps you don't like the questions ? So now your gone? Seems so strange...but I guess this all becomes more suspicious...

There are many of us here who post trade ideas and actual trades for free. I don't know why we would need to take "responsibility" for someone else.?....It was requested that you share your ideas after the market......but no response ....

I think if you were truely sincere you could have put the money issue aside and posted your ideas at your leisure. After all you did say you wanted to help out....you never originally said you wanted to HELP the money come OUT of somebodies wallet.....bringing the money factor into the picture is where this becomes a challenge...

Bruce

quote:

---

Originally posted by hunterone

So come one voodoo and everyone else that is critical of me step up like I have. Put yourself out there for everyone to see.

Then if anyone is so impressed by your abilities they want to learn from you teach them for free. Take on the responsibility of making some one successful.

I am done with this thread.

---

I disagree with this completely Jim! In the 2-3 years that I have been ranting and raving here ( posting ideas and actual trades as they happen), the only people who have put me down where the vendors I have confronted.....not once have I been insulted by others or asked to back things up....I think it is always up to the reader to decide if something works for them over time.

I sometimes go to great lengths to try and post things as I take them because I get emails from people who don't take the setups.....so for the last 3 months I have tried to put things in realtime for those who have emailed seeking greater clarity on ideas I have shared. I also get some great feedback and ideas in return...what could be better?

The most important thing is that I'm not charging any money so anyone reading my posts can "take it or leave it"

I think if anyone gave Hunterone or anyone that posts ideas here some grief then the forum members here would rally to support the person posting ideas.....Now if you start dragging money into this then there are many ( like myself) who want to hold vendors to a higher standard.

Why would anyone ask for proof from someone who is posting trading ideas for free...?

We disagree on this concept and I'm cool with that.

Bruce

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimkane

day trading,

Here's what I see happening. Tell me what you think. hunterone takes you up on this and posts some great teaching examples every day. Really nice work showing the what's and how to's of his methodology. And the first response post will read: 'Nice after the fact examples. Now show us something before the fact. Anyone can show charts for what has already happened...' In my opinion, it's almost impossible to teach via forums without more problems than it seems worth. I'm really surprised he stuck around as long as he did. It really makes me feel bad how it always seems to go in forums...

---

Bruce, I think you summed things up well there. Your ideas are all public and if someone wanted to say "hey those don't work and I'll show you why" they can easily do it and are free to do so. A couple of years ago when I did those topics on the Single Print trading strategy I got some great responses from people saying things like "hey, have you noticed that when the Single Print fails that such and such has just crossed over the thingy" etc. That's the great benefit of sharing trading strategies and ideas.

BruceM,

Well, what I notice here and at other well-known forums is that if someone is a well-respected or known member, people don't say much as far as negative stuff. You don't get blasted, dt doesn't, pt emini, and fortunately I don't, but look at those post numbers. When someone shows up and has a handful of posts they get shredded. You probably recall what I wrote up in my free forum here about what happened over at another forum, where you and I discussed some ideas.

The really curious part about that story is that the person who posted is one of my very best students, and I know he was just commenting honestly, but he just registered and that was his first post. They killed him so bad the thread was deleted and he told me he didn't feel too good about how he was treated. The curious part? Another student of mine, one who is well-known and has many posts, long before this he commented on my work (the only post he ever made referring to me), and he didn't have one single negative thing said about it to this day, and that post is still there.

So, my comment really was pointing out that your excellent trading posts are given a lot of respect because of who you are, and the respect you already have at this forum. Really, if someone starting giving you static about your charts and such, the entire community here would be behind you. We know you, and know your work. I'm not sure if it was that way from the start for you, but if it was, I've never seen that before anywhere.

When I post in a place where no one knows me, I get the same questions, and roofer, who posts in the chart section here, I see him get them from people who don't know he is one of the most prolific free posters in the entire trading universe. Once they realize who he is, they completely change their attitudes towards him.

This is just my two cents, take it for what it is worth.

Jim,

An example of what you are talking about is gio5959. As I type this he has 134 posts against his name but when he started sharing his methods and trade setups and charts with us he probably had single digits. Nobody blasted him or criticized him because he wasn't trying to sell anything. He is merely sharing his trading methods to help others, get feedback and learn more.

I personally haven't seen anyone get blasted for saying "hey, this is how I trade, this is why I took this trade today." The times when I see forum members getting blasted is when they say "I made a ton of money today and I want to share the methods with you but I can't because ... but if you pay me ... then it will make it worthwhile."

dt,

I am starting to see that it really has to do with claims and trying to sell a product via the forum. I guess I am just very burned out on how the discussions seem to go, in that you can see the same game, the same run around the answers, the same song and dance repeated over and over and over, on all forums, and I just wish there was a way around it.

Here's what I would consider a better forum structure. I'm not being facetious here, I think this would really be great. I'm not proposing that this forum be changed in this manner, and it probably isn't even productive for people to tell me all the downsides to this structure, or why the current structure is actually fine, it's just a food for thought concept of how I would do a forum if were to run one. I guess in a way it's more like the ones you have to join and are fully moderated.

First, I would divide the forum into two sections, 'vendors' and 'non-vendors' (or commercial and non-commercial, if you will). Some forums are completely non-commercial, like Market Geometry. You can have products you sell, but you can't discuss them at the forum. Posts with commercial material are deleted immediately. So, the non-vendor section would be the type of discussion you just mentioned. No reference to any material for sale or services would be allowed, just discussion about trading.

The 'vendor' section would be further divided into two areas, 'statements' and 'non-statements'. If any claims are made, the post must go to the 'statements' area, where only those who have sent in at least a full year (or whatever is deemed appropriate) of independently verified, audited statements, which will be posted on a page for that, will be allowed to post. This is a moderated area, so if you aren't permissioned for claims, you can't post any. All posts/claims must be consistent with the statements viewable to all. Any other claims (like I did this and that trade and got these spectacular returns on them) must be accompanied with statements or the moderator will not post them.

The 'non-statements' area allows vendors to post about their products, what they are, what the costs are, and so on, but no claims are allowed at all. Any post with any claim (I made this, our students make that, I did this trade and made this, etc...) is not posted by the moderator. Maybe it is sent back saying this is a post for the 'vendor-statement' area, and will require accompanying audited statements on rebsubmission to that area.

Probably I should quit here, but I want to run on some more about what I see as just a non-productive waste of valuable time. These vendors take up what seems like the majority of the space here, and the pattern is the same, over and over for the rest of eternity. They come, they make outlandish claims, they have their shills, the core crew step and says let's see some statements, everyone goes back and forth in a near exact repeat of the posts from the last how many vendors, and then another one shows up, and it all repeats. Lather, rinse, repeat. Over and over, forever. This, to save all those new to trading from the mess of getting involved with scam artists.

It seems to me to be terribly unproductive, since it is the same thing, over and over. The Trading Advisory Services topic has over two-thousand posts, and some threads have like forty pages. I guess my gripe is that I wonder how much of this is because people really feel this is the best way to address the issue, and how much is because they love to play the game of going back and forth with these people (nobody in here take this personally, please, it's a general comment for all forums). Myself, I hate that game, and I think it is a waste of time.

I'm looking for a better way to assist the newcomers, in a much more efficient way that doesn't require this endless conflict. There must be a better way. If we truly want to help out all these beginners before they get suckered, shouldn't we use our energy and efforts in a way that directs that energy towards those that need help, all the while making the point clear about these unscrupulous vendors? Like I said in the last post, that's my two cents, and who knows, maybe that's all it's worth...

Jim,

Very well put, but the vendor section of the forum that would have verified stmts. would be zero. b/c they would beable to lure and sell big dreams of granduer to the punter's.

voodoo1,

I agree it would be zero, but it would be available, and the fact that it had zero would make the point in itself. Then everyone would just hang out in the 'non-vendor' area and no one would slam anyone, and it would be awesome. At least that's what I keep telling myself...

I consistently profit from futures/futures options, but it took me a long time to figure out the best way for me to do so.

While a set of trading rules is very important, I have found that it is just as, maybe even MORE important, to develop "trading callouses" from getting your butt handed to you repeatedly along the way.

Here's the thing: Any set of rules will only work until they don't. It is normal human psychology that there will come a time (again and again) where you deviate from the rules because A) you have had a string of losses, B) you have had a string of wins and now you have a loss and can't believe you're really supposed to "lose this one," C) you get greedy, D) you get scared for whatever reason, or E) any one of a thousand other things that will cause you to screw up.

I had ups and downs for many years until I thought I had it figured out and had a couple of years of really solid profits. I had my own private island picked out :) (not really, but I did have a condo in mind O/N an island). Then came the financial crisis of 2008 and I learned that while I had a generally good strategy, because times were good I had not developed an appropriate risk control system.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars later... (and that didn't take long at all!) I learned the hard way that my strategy was woefully inadequate when the unexpected happened. It took me a while to brush myself off, but eventually I did.

Since sometime in 2009 my cumulative returns are somewhere around 450%. Over the past 9 years I've found that proper risk control continues to be where I tend to fall short, so I've had some choppiness during this time. About two years ago I tightened things up some more to try to make for a smoother equity curve... this mean that, theoretically, my losing months should NOT be as large as in the past, but my winning months will also not be as large as they were in the past.

That's okay though -- even my cumulative success over the past 9-10 years, when averaged out by month, comes to < 2% a month. I suspect that 2% a month, long term, is about where I'll stay, but the ride should just be smoother along the way.

A return like that may or may not be enough for a particular person--it is for me--but keep in mind if you want to shoot for the stars there's a really good chance you're going to eventually crash land back on earth. It really does come down to being adequately capitalized and having a reasonable return be "enough" for you. By all means, trade even with a small account, because you need that experience to get to the point where you'll know what you're doing when you have the larger account. Just don't expect to turn a tiny account into a massive one along the way or you will probably be disappointed.

-PDG