I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:


We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about eminiviper.com

From 6/8/09:

jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that EminiViper.com page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of EminiViper.com, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.

cba33558: Hey Jim -

Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...

The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.

The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.

In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.

Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...

jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.

I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.

Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.

Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.
Hi Gio -

The Viper may have a similar appearance to other indicators; but trust me when I say it isn't. So in answer to your question, it is not Hull moving average or any other type of moving average.

The Viper trading system as a whole actually consists of 4 separate scripts - one of which makes up the Viper indicator itself. The Viper indicator is one component of the overall trading system.

We have a lot of great questions like your come up all the time; so we have set-up a series of free Webinars that people can visit to ask questions and discuss the system on different chart settings.

There are links to those Webinars on the free download page.

If you want to try to compare Viper to other garden variety indicators, you could argue its paint bar study is very similiar to Heiken Ashi.

That leaves the pivots and these can be found from a variety of sources including most data provider platforms.

Now, assuming you have the Hull MA (color modified), Heiken Ashi and the correct pivot settings, all that leaves is the hard part--your ability as a trader to take a high probability entries and manage the trade thereafter.

Paying for Viper at a cost of $2000 or using the free indicators which admitttedly won't be exactly like Viper but damn near close, is irrelevant if you don't have ability to read what the market is telling you.
Greetings, and again, sorry for the delay in response but we have been very busy...

I can appreciate the analogies to other indicators; however, as I mentioned in previous posts, the Viper trading system software scripts are proprietary to the system and cannot be found elsewhere.

As for collaboration, we have received a lot of positive feedback in applying the system to a wide variety of instruments and have decided to set-up a forum for traders to share ideas and charts. We value the input of all the traders in this forum and will share the link in a post when it is available.

And last but not least, we have not yet determined a price for the system; however, we can say that it will be a very reasonable monthly rate. Early adopters and users of the free download have been very happy with the system.

I've spent much time evaluating Viper and although there are some merits to it, I have some serious reservations if the indicator (it is an indicator, not a system) has enough value to justify $99/month. When one can PURCHASE, not lease, Ninja Trader for life at a single payment of $995 with all its functionality, I scratch my head at Viper's cost.

Viper is a good indicator to tell one when the market is trending or simply directionless. There are other indicators on the market that do this equally as good and either cost less or are free. What's nice about Viper is it is very clean and easy to understand, leaving little room for confusion. What's not nice about Viper is what it doesn't do; namely, give the trader a clear signal when to enter and when to exit. This is up to the trader to decide based on his ability to see a breakout pattern setup in realtime. The entry rules that are taught by the developers require pattern recognition skills. Exit rules, on the other hand, are straightforward and easy to understand. Hell, even I understood them.

The developers have a done a masterful job of producing daily videos after the fact of all the winning trades that Viper caught with annotated charts. It is important to note that although the developers say the videos are shot live with the market trading, the so-called trades were "taken" before, not durng that time. One must also understand that Viper DID NOT signal these trades in realtime (Viper doesn't do that). The trades that are used for marketing purposes are strictly hypothetical in the truest sense of the word. Whether you, me, the developers, or anyone else could replicate those trades as they are depicted in the videos is questionable.

I would submit that if the developers want to really prove that Viper is a value-added trading tool, they should shoot their marketing videos daily LIVE, AS THE TRADE SETS UP, clearly pointing out where they enter and exit in REALTIME, not after the fact. This would truly seperate them from 99% of the other vendors who are selling trading tools and systems. I challenge them to do this. And if they consistently demonstrate profitable trades in sim or cash mode (I don't care which) LIVE, then they deserve all the business they can get their hands on.

Viper offers a free 2 week trial. I encourage any prospective purchaser to take that trial and evaluate Viper thoroughly before purchasing.
Thanks for the summary phantasmagoria - much appreciated!
Thanks phantasma, your summary is greatly appreciated. Exactly what I had expected.
Thanks Phantasma,

Could you explain what you mean by "its an indicator, not a system" please. The company calls themselves Viper Trading Systems. So I am a little unclear on what the real definition of a system would be.
Originally posted by pookster

Thanks Phantasma,

Could you explain what you mean by "its an indicator, not a system" please. The company calls themselves Viper Trading Systems. So I am a little unclear on what the real definition of a system would be.

To me, a trading system gives signals when to enter and when to exit. Left to its own devices, it gets you in and out requiring no decision-making or discretion on your part.

Indicators, on the other hand, are tools used by the trader to help understand price action and when to possibly enter and exit. Some traders use scores of indicators in many configurations before deciding to take a trade. Here is a list of some of the more common ones.


Don't be misled by the company's name. The sole product it sells is an indicator.

Hope that helps.
Thanks again Phanta,

I should have been able to figure that out myself. The very word "system" would imply that all components necessary are included and what could be more necessary in trading than executing entries, exits and stop losses.
More musings on Viper.

The developers have created a new script to track the price swings to make it easier to identify where a trade might be taken. I think it's a useful addition to visualize where the breakout levels may occur, but it is not a clear entry signal. Viper does not give entry signals, but this is better than nothing.

A bigger issue for Viper traders is to decide what size range bars to employ for the trading and guidance charts. Again, it's very easy, with the benefit of hindsight, to play around with the settings until the trade looks picture perfect to shoot a marketing video and show all the hypothetical winners that setup. But when trading live, how is one supposed to know what the best setting are? Viper does not tell you. If you examine the marketing videos, you'll note that the settings change daily on the different instruments depending on, I think, volatilty.

Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.

I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.

If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.