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I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:

We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about

From 6/8/09:

jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.

cba33558: Hey Jim -

Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...

The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.

The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.

In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.

Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...

jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.

I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.

Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.

Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.
Originally posted by myptofvu

Sorry I couldn't attend the Viper webinar I had something more productive planned for this evening. I had planned on smashing my balls with a meat tenderizer.

I was just hoping someone attended so we could hear what crap they are spilling out on unsuspecting trading wannerbe's.
I was at the NinjaTrader event. It was pretty much the same as a wednesday night or saturday morning webinar, Charles arrogantly talked through it all. More drawing on old charts. And Rich was there to show how well the scalper autotrader works on reloaded charts. Nothing new. One difference was that I could see the questions. People asked how the manual viper did in the chop, Charles said that they stay out of the chop with boxes drawn on the charts in the "chat" room, like it's some technological breakthrough that he invented.

He also talked about probes like it's some huge thing. Rich mentioned the word "probe" in a webinar once back in December(?), and explained it and Charles and Gary have latched onto it and talk about it all of the time. Of course, it's obvious after the fact but impossible to show live, just like all of the products they're pushing. I'm not sure, but probe and retrace could be the same thing, just explained differently, but look the same on an old chart.

Another question was if they could show their accounts to see how the products did live, the question was ignored.

They implied that they called live trades in the "chat" room, I was in today's "chat" room for the first half hour or so and it's more like, "you could take the trade if you want, just be careful if it goes here or there and I'd be nervous if blah, blah, blah..." Then later they say either "that was a great trade I called" or "that'll eat your account real quick if you take those trades."
Ok guys, I am a FULL member of the Viper System. Here is my take: These guys do offer some value. But they also come very short in other areas. I'll discuss the short comings. YES, they cherry pick their charts and it is so frustrating. On video archives, they are suppose to post the videos daily for review on the Trade Assistant Auto Program. But they only post the winning charts and omit ALL the losers. They also curve fit their charts to make it look good. They will manipulate the ranges until it shows a profitable chart to post. And their chat room entries on the Viper manual system comes late into the trade move. Also, they will never ever give a a clear verbal entry. They will say that they entered in a trade after the trade turns out to be a winner. But, if it is a loser, they will say they never got in or they already exited for break even or small loss, when in fact your waiting for the exit verbal signal and in a big loss and the next thing you hear is that they say they were never in it. Ever trade they take, they verbally wish and pray for the move to go their way. Unbelievable, they dont trust their trading indicators, so they have to pay and hope!

I am still a member, but canceled the Trade Assistant Auto Program and I am just a regular chat room member for $99/month. Why you ask I am still with them, they do offer some value that I am not able to find in any other chat room for a reasonable amount of monthly fee. I like these guys when they actually watch 6-10 "futures" charts other than the ES Mini. Most other chat rooms just watch the ES Mini. Does anyone know of any other chat room that watches other markets such as the currency futures?

This is the only reason why I am still with these guys. I dont use their indicators, but using my other 3rd party indicators that I own for life. When I trade, I like to hear traders in a chat room, that is just me. This is the only reason why I am still with Viper.

Charles always comes into the room late and ALWAYS interrupts Gary in mid sentence until Gary acknowledges Charles. Who has the big head here?

Would I recommend these Viper guys? yes and no. These guys will give a good start to the newbe, but for someone who already trades the futures with some knowledge, not for them.
A clever shill...newbies step right up...older "experienced traders' will wise up .A little bit of good guy/bad guy...

I am also a subscriber to the Viper chat. I agree with most of what MassiveCash said. I like lietening to the chat. They do look at 6 to 8 different futures at a time and the extra set of eyes they provide help me see more trades. I don't really think their indicators provide that much help but they do read price action weiil

I used to be frustrated because it appeared they talked about the trades after tnhey showed they were working. In the last couple of weeks Gary has been more open about when he entters a trade and when he exits it. He even talks about trades that went against him. The other thing Gary and Charles are doing more often is showing the dollar amount of their live trades.

I don't care about their autotrading products. The "Scalper" that Rich is promoting is a joke. The trade assistant can help you enter trades they way they teach but you still have to manage when you might want to take a trade (in other words turn it off after a run when it goes into consolidation so it doesn't take a trade you don't watch) and when you want to exit.

I think my $99 per month for the daily charts and chat is well worth the money. More experienced traders might disagree.
Originally posted by pink floyd232

A clever shill...newbies step right up...older "experienced traders' will wise up .A little bit of good guy/bad guy...


Hey Pink, Not a shill at all, in fact a complete opposite. Every time I address my concerns with them in the chat, they ignore my questions, very frustrating. I already canceled my Auto Trade Assist for $149/mth, but still hanging on to the Live Charts Chat room for $99/mth.

I want to cancel the $99 as well but I need to look for another chat room that looks at several markets like the currencies as well. I dont want a chat room that just looks at the ES Mini, since the ES is a waste of time. The ES will chop you out of your money so quick and it soooo slow....
oh BTW, I did find another site, EOTPROLIVE, these guys do watch other markets as well. And they trade with small stops, not a huge draw down trail stop or initial 25 tic stop like Viper. And the trader, Bill Dennis, is great, and he does show you his daily sheet if you ask him and he does show you his DOM. I really have to complaints on this site, but its a little more like $233-$322/mth, But that cost should be nothing if you make money with them. He has clear verbal entry signals, you cant be any clearer than Bill. And he does have losses. But they are very small.

(ooops, im rambling on and this should be in another thread)....I'll cut and paste now....sorry....)
The cost per month to have these bozos call trades late and then not own the losers, just bast about the winners is now $199, not $99.

Please people, use the head God gave you and don't piss away your money on this stuff. Don't let these predators take your money so you can listen to what amounts to an early morning trading talk show.
All I see everytime I come to this loser site is gripe, gripe, and more gripes. I saw the live trades made by these guys and they are totally kicking butt in that chat room. Well worth the money to me. If you are a more experienced trader and don't feel like you need them, then trade on your own, but for crying out loud, quit the constant bashing. These guys have done more to help so called newbie traders to become profitable than any of you bozos. I am sticking with them.
Originally posted by FuturesTraderDad

All I see everytime I come to this loser site is gripe, gripe, and more gripes. I saw the live trades made by these guys and they are totally kicking butt in that chat room. Well worth the money to me. If you are a more experienced trader and don't feel like you need them, then trade on your own, but for crying out loud, quit the constant bashing. These guys have done more to help so called newbie traders to become profitable than any of you bozos. I am sticking with them.

Well he said it in Bold...he must be right!
Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.

I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.

If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.
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