I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:


We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about eminiviper.com

From 6/8/09:

jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that EminiViper.com page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of EminiViper.com, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.

cba33558: Hey Jim -

Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...

The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.

The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.

In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.

Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...

jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.

I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.

Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.

Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.
For all of their cheerleaders(and aliases)-If you want to cheer the good have the integrity to show the bad. If you are unwilling to be objective, don't be critical of those that are.
Viper Auto Trader Morning Results...

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Viper AutoTrader morning results
Well, at this point, I would like to hear a comment from Angel on this latest performance. I am not trying to pick on Angel specifically, I only chose this poster because he was the last one to post very positive comments. If we don't get a response back discussing both the positive and negative aspects of any trading system, then I get suspicious. Even if any suspicion isn't warranted, it reflects an approach that does not serve us as traders, to see the positive, and not deal with the negative. We need to say 'Okay, here's what my system is doing well for me, and here's how I can capitalize on that and maximize that' as well as 'And here is how my system is not working well for me, and here is how I can work on improving that'.

Those that focus only on the winning trades generally are not balanced enough for long-term success. Like I say in my books and such, my PTA (potential trade area, the 'setup') is only 10%-20% of my 'Trading Plan', opposed to the 90%, 95%, or even 99% you see most vendors emphasize. I wish I could recall who said this quote, it may have been Bernard Baruch (anyone out there know?). When asked at a party what he does for a living, he replied "I take losses". In my opinion, the winners are the easy part. Dealing with the losers is where the pro skills come in. Let's see if we get some real trading discussion going on here, or no replies, or no constructive discussion on the losers. That will tell me a lot. But above and beyond what it will tell me, if we want to help new traders, that is the kind of discussion we want to offer, and people like Angel will want to contribute.
Great points JK, and yes Angel if you read this please post your comments/thoughts on the current performance so that we can all learn and grow together as traders. Noboby will jump down your throat as long as you're honest with yourself and us.

Baruch had lots of great quotes. He was the Yogi Berra of finance. Regarding the one on losses, was it the one where he said "I made my money by selling too soon." ?
Cat, yes, Baruch was the one who said that about selling too soon, but the one I was thinking about was something said at a party, and wasn't directly related to your quote. I need to keep a notebook of cool quotes so that when I recall one I can cite where it is from...
So far this discussion should be saved for posterity as a classic example of what happens when some guys are more interested in selling a trading method than in actually trading.

If anyone thinks these guys will be open to an honest and objective discussion then you are in need of an immediate "check up from the neck", as Z. Zeigler would say.
Hy Men,

back to you with some images of today DiamondBackAutoES

I divided the storyboard in two sides to show the images in the best

way possible .

In this frame time things were perfects, no so good in the proceed

Will post the second side later

Thanks for now .

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Originally posted by pt_emini

Originally posted by Angel

You guys are so jealous of these guys. I was in their room again today and they kept me out of the chop and I made two great trades. Seems like they do know how to trade. They have a room full of people making money every day while you guys just gripe. It must be really sad to be so negative all the time. Go Viper !!!!!!!!!

Viper Auto Trader LOST $2,000 USD yesterday in the ES.

It entered short at the exact low tick of several swings, and went long at the exact high tick of another swing. By noon it had 9 straight losing trades in a row.

Thank you PT for the information.

I am not the least bit surprised.

Breakout systems like Viper can often enter on the wrong side at the exact swing lows and highs and get trapped with the rest of the breakout players (generally new retail traders) while professionals fade that worn out setup and trigger all the stops in the opposite direction.

All the breakout systems I know of--and I know a lot of them--not a single one has backtested profitably.

Viper compounds that problem by advocating a negative risk:reward ratio.

Herewith detailed settings

that are not exactly the same originally supplied with the strategy.

Due a tech prob I cannot show results of the same strategy running on another of the 3 Pc's I dedicated to perform tests, that, unfortunately was running with the original ones but,

please, believe me results were also good at the end of the time

frame mentioned into the above chart file name .

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Herewith the second part of the day ...


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Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.

I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.

If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.