I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:


We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about eminiviper.com

From 6/8/09:

jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that EminiViper.com page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of EminiViper.com, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.

cba33558: Hey Jim -

Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...

The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.

The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.

In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.

Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...

jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.

I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.

Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.

Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.
Tigerman, I have tried Viper.

I think it's a decent trend indicator, but not worth $99.00 a month to me. I can replicate it with a 21 period linear regression line and some basic slope coding for the color changes. And the bars can be replicated fairly closely with Heiken Ashi.

Don't take my word for it. NT has Lin Reg as a free indicator. A 21 period is EXACTLY the same as Viper sans color change. Any of the NT coders can write the color script for $100 and now you OWN the darn thing for the price of 1 month's rent.

There's no magic here.

nice find

keep up the good work
Phantasmagoria, Thank you.
I found this site doing a web search for critiques of the Viper. I had no idea I would find anything as good as your posting. Rather than a 21 period linear regression line is there in your opinion any value in using a 10 period LRL and 4/5 tick range bar on the ES. You are so right in your assesment!! But you are wrong in your final conclusion. Actually there is 'magic' here. It is the internet and finding people like yourself that are willing to share their knowledge and help others like myself. Once again thank you very much.
The Breakout indicator is identical to Ninja's Donchian Channel set to 5 period, Solid, Square settings.
Originally posted by thetaxman

The Breakout indicator is identical to Ninja's Donchian Channel set to 5 period, Solid, Square settings.

And so it is. Just another Viper "exclusive" that's free with most data provider packages. But you can rent it for only $99.00 a month!

These two amateurs, Charles and Gary, are running a live room this week and it is hilarious listening to them peddle their wares, root for trades they supposedly are in (but not announced in the room) and tell you how much money you could have made using Viper after the fact. Of course they make no mention of the Viper signals that result in stopouts.

If you want to listen in the next few days, I suggest you put on your waist-high, waterproof fishing pants on and get ready for some great laughs. This trading room is definately worth the price of admission.
And let's not forget about those top secret, "proprietary" Viper pivots. Get yours emailed everyday for free from this great site.

We also calculate a bunch of pivots every day on this site: Daily Notes
If those's numbers that DT posted can't make a proprietary style day trader money, then nothing will. IMHO...I have been using a set of numbers just like (except mine has sq roots, and sq nines) those for almost 5 years...although I don't use them half the time now, but wouldn't be where I am now without them.
Viper Trading Systems Review.

Part I

Due to the extraordinary length of this missive I have decided to break it down into sections and release them at separate times allowing the reader time to digest the material. Each subsequent release will be attached to the previous one to provide continuity.

Before I begin I need to point out that you will have to forgive some inconsistencies with the flow of this review since I had started the original draft some time ago and have had to make additions, corrections, changes along the way.

Well folks I have been evaluating the Viper system for a couple of months now in great depth. I would have liked to have evaluated it for a longer period of time before writing my review, but unfortunately I have been banned from the Viper Trading Systems room and have had my subscription canceled. This is due to the fact that I am believed to be another poster on this thread named “Phantasmagoria” even though I have assured them I am not. DayTrading (Guy) would you please conduct an inquest into this and prove that I am not “Phantasmagoria”? Update: Since then I have also been informed that part of the reason for my being banned is my affiliation with the “MyPivots” forum. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that all this started with Charles inviting “MyPivots” members to evaluate his program.

During the past two + months I have attended almost every trading room session, training session, reviewed all of their videos, read their training literature and have spent many hours on the phone with them. I have also downloaded and installed their system for both E-Signal and Ninja Trader. I was also a volunteer moderator for their room until I was banned from the program.

I wish to give as an honest of a review as I can offer in spite of the mistreatment I have suffered. I would also like to address the many questions/comments made on this forum concerning “Viper Trading Systems” and its Founders.

My approach to evaluating these rooms comes down to one thing (as many of you may know form reading my other posts). It’s a well-known fact that 90% of traders lose money. My question then becomes “By how much has your system improved these numbers?” Seems like a reasonable enough question, yet I have to date never received a straight answer mainly due to none of them ever looking at it in this light. Since Viper Trading is so new it’s not possible to review any past performance, but I am still basing my evaluation on this single premise.

Side note: Phantasmagoria, I harbor no animosity towards you and hold you in no way responsible for my being banned. My being banned was a direct result of the poor judgment exhibited by Charles Boyle.

With that said on to the review:

The Developers.

Viper Trading System is the brainchild of Charles Boyle and Gary Donahoo. Two people who met up online in another trading room with Charles being the mentor and Gary the student who eventually became close friends. Their decision to create Viper was out of sheer necessity to find something that they could use to become profitable in trading. Their story kind of reminds me of Hewlett & Packard starting out by building computers in their garage. From Vipers conception till now has been roughly 1.5 years. Prior to becoming professional traders Charles has a background in Silicon Valley, working as a marketer for companies such as Oracle. Gary has since left his career in retail sales to become a full time trader.

The Methodology.

The methodology behind their system is pretty straightforward. Stay on the right side of the market, get while the getting is good, risk a little to get a lot and don’t give your profits back once you’ve earned them. They approached this by creating a trend catching software that recognizes when high probability trades are available and filtering out as much noise as possible. More on this in the System section.

Originally posted by myptofvu

...believed to be another poster on this thread named “Phantasmagoria” even though I have assured them I am not. DayTrading (Guy) would you please conduct an inquest into this and prove that I am not “Phantasmagoria”?

Confirmed that you and phantasmagoria are NOT the same person.
Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.

I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.

If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.