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I started this topic because some questions I asked and answers I got from cba33558 were getting lost in this rather extensive topic here:

We started this discussion on page 30 of that thread, and I thought I'd move it here so we can continue it (since no one took me up on my offer to start this thread). I'll cut and paste the three posts made after cba33558 posted a chart about

From 6/8/09:

jimkane: Hey, cba. I checked out that page. Very impressive. Seems like they don't have any losing days, or even losing trades (or do they not post those?). Is that so? If not, how many stop outs or false signals are you seeing on an average day? It doesn't mean much to me to see winners, I am more interested in the losers I have to take to get those winners. Also, are you the owner of, or do you work for them? If not, what is your association? If I don't ask, that will likely be the first question from everyone else. Thanks.

cba33558: Hey Jim -

Thanks for visiting the Web site and offering your constructive questions and feedback...

The videos are intended to show the NQ Emini trades that are triggered by the system each day. Currently the system is designed to issue trade signals only the Nasdaq Emini. In addition to the Viper indicator, the system uses a combination of guidance charts and a trading chart that very rarely has a losing trade. With all of these constraints, it should be noted however, that there are not many signals that trigger in any given trading day. Depending on the volatility - usually one or two trades may trigger - a busy day would be 3 trades.

The entire trading system is not shown in the videos; however, all of the details regarding these trade signals are shown in an eBook and training videos. The actual trade signals themselves are analyzed in real-time in the live Webinars. The entire goal of this system was accuracy - not catching every trade.

In answer to your other question, I have been a trader for a little over 12 years now, I am a partner in the firm; and was involved extensively in developing, actively trading and back-testing the Viper system over the past year and a half.

Once again, thank you for your input, and I look forward to opportunity of respectfully participating in your Forum...

jimkane: Thanks for the response, cba. Wow, those are some incredibly impressive stats. Given these are intraday trend trades, it's almost incomprehensible to me. My style is intraday trend trading, and with the 3 to 5 to 1 or sometimes higher reward/risk profiles I'm happy anywhere in the 30% to 50% winners range.

I have a few more questions. Is there a way to follow along and see live trade signals the moment they develop, on a trial basis? The web site mentions visiting a live webinar for a day. Would one see live signals in time to act, or only after they have started? What if no signals are generated that day, can someone try another day? It's very hard to evaluate a system with a one-day trial, especially one that generates only a few signals.

Next, what is the difference between live webinars and live trading room, as far as signals given in real-time? Also, if one signs on to your room and gets all that training, does that do any good without the software? What is the cost of the license, since the website doesn't specify this? I'd love to follow along real-time for a period and evaluate your system, but I'm not sure you have any provisions where I could do that without laying out money first. Again, if I don't ask all these questions, someone else will. Since I'm probably the longest-winded character at this forum, I figured I'd just get the ball rolling. It's not often I hear about a system that has almost no losers at all.

Lastly, if we go much further with this discussion it may be appropriate to move it from this thread to one you or someone else could create in Trading Advisory Services.
One way we could have gotten a better look at the system and its results over time would have been for the programmers to allow it to be used in the NT Replay mode. Instead they chose to code it to work only with the Sim account. Their answer has been that they are looking forward, not backwards. The real reason appears to be a lack of understanding of the Ninja platform and how the Replay feature works. They have stated in the room that NT will not let strategies run in Replay. The results for the week are impressive, but remember that numerous loosing trades were backed out after the fact when they occurred around 'news'. Only then were the trade times adjusted to not trade immediately before or after the news release.
PT and JK. I was aware of the difference, but so many new traders think a drawdown is the amount of risk on a trade. Good explanation.

I think Viper should register on Collective2, so the public can see arms length hypothetical peformance results, including slippage and commission--with key trading ratios--from a reputable tracking service. Then after at least 150 trades, we can get a better picture than one week.
"I think Viper should register on Collective2"... "allow it to be used in the NT Replay mode"...
Phant & Tax, it will never happen. For the same reason they won't permit people in their webinars every day see what other people write, for the same reason that they only orally relay what people write when they announce winning trades... never losers, etc. McDonalds doesn't have TV ads that say "our burgers are delicious BUT they clog your arteries and make you fat". Froot Loops doesn't say " Hey Kids, Our cereal is yummy and all the sugar in it will rot your teeth". Etc., etc. They bury all the negatives.
Maybe just because they have such a number of winning trades and their group is growing exponentially, they just might have something. I know by listening to them, they definitely know how to trade, because I see it every day. Their webinars have taught me how to trade and I love it. I think you guys ought to just suck it up and realize these guys are gold!!
Some of us are also members of their room and trialing the autotrader and learning the system. I also think they may be on to a good system, but that does not mean there is not room for legitimate criticism or suggestions for improvement. Early on Gary said that he was going to use Chart trader live in the room, if only on a Sim far he has not...The inability to use the AT in Replay is one thing, but to say NT does not allow it is just wrong. None of us has a shred of evidence that they actually trade the system. All some of us are asking for is a legitimate chance to test the system, or to see it work real time.
Originally posted by Angel

Maybe just because they have such a number of winning trades and their group is growing exponentially, they just might have something. I know by listening to them, they definitely know how to trade, because I see it every day. Their webinars have taught me how to trade and I love it. I think you guys ought to just suck it up and realize these guys are gold!!

Angel - I am pleased the viper folks are helping you with your trading. I am sure everyone here wishes you all the success in your trading going forward.

One thing about the mypivots forum is the regular contributors here are not generally inclined to blindly take a vendor's word for the performance of the product or service being marketed to the retail public. Also, we don't just take the word of any poster on a thread related to that product or service. Folks who know me, know I am a hard numbers guy. When it comes to vendors and trading systems, personal opinions don't carry much if any weight with me, I need to see the numbers. You can rest assured I along with others here will objectively evaluate the performance numbers produced by a trading system. We want a fair and balanced discussion forum. But many of us here will be basing our evaluation of this (or any other) system on facts, not opinions. If you take time to go back to page one of this thread, you will read Jim Kane's initial few postings on the viper system and see this is exactly what he was attempting to do from the start.

I am glad viper is helping you in your trading but its not mostly viper, its you learning the market.

Something I think most traders/newbies fail to realize is that trading is 70% trader and 30% indicator/methodology. I have seen good traders take bad systems tweak them and make them good. At the same time I have seen more bad traders trade a good system poorly and then swear it cannot be done.

I guarantee you that if you take 100 newbies teach them viper and in 3 years all but 1-3 will probably be out of biz if that many will still be around. I am not saying viper doesn't work, I am sure it does well. If its anything like cobra it has low draw downs and about 80% in the right direction. I spent years looking for the holy grail. I have spent more money than probably most here on education/course's and it took a long time to find something that was right for me. I was looking for something that worked for others and was disappointed time and again. Only until I built MY OWN rules was I successful. And if you and any other trader depend on a person/indicator/bull or bear market to act as a crutch for them then you are doomed for failure. I am 26 and have been trading my whole adult life (minus a 2 year sabbatical) And I have seen things in my own trading that worked like magic for a time and then stop working. example I used to make thousands a day because the ES for a timed moved in 5.625 point moves....11.25 up and 22.5 down 5.625 up ect ect. This worked during the slow bull market of 2005-2006. And then on day after a couple of years that the VIX poped and my little holy grail disappeared never to return as of yet. But you know what? I made it thru that because I know price action and didn't put all my eggs in one basket. My point is if I put to much confidence in one thing in the trading world it will let you down. So the next time someone who pays there bills from trading tells you beware, you ought to beware because NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE is going to make you or anyone else a profitable trader. Profitable Traders are made thru trails and hardships not some indicator holding there hand.
Charter Joe,

Just to add a bit of lightness to the thread, 26yrs minus 21 is 5yrs, minus 2yr sabbatical...So 3 years trading? Just kidding of course...I'm much older and gain from successful traders' posts. Age has nothing to do with this business. It's the numbers at the end of the day,week,month and year that count...I hope the Viper room succeeds because so many folks are following it. I just wish they would answer some of the questions posed here.
Have you ever bought a house or any other large ticket idem and loved it but asked yourself....why is the seller selling it? If viper is so good why sell it to us puny retail traders....why even sell it at all? why not give it away for free if its because they love helping. Why waste time marketing when you can use it in the market?

if you would read martinez thread I have already explained what happened to me.

I was trading when i was 15 years old, I was home schooled and my Father's a full time stock and futures trader I learned economics and took several classes devoted to trading. I started trading my own account at the age of 15. Many of you may think I was just playing with daddys money for those 3 years but I as a part of the schooling I received was charged with the duty of finding a system and generating sufficient income. The system was a basic gann 1/8ths or what yall would call Fibonacci numbers mixed with point and figure rules on stock options. I never blew the account and traded it until I was 20 or 21 I don't remember. at which time I went into construction because the system simply stopped working and I had already amassed quite a bit and was afraid of losing it( I was scared out of the market, I should have pealed the size down the problem was not the system but poor MM)....I saw a boom coming in housing and got my license and built 10 homes missed trading full time and went back to trading only this time in the ES with a much shorter time frame and vastly different. It took me 2 years to come up with a new system. And it only took me 11days to recoup the losses that scared me out of the market. I never really stopped trading I was always in the NQ or YM just not full time 100% I need another system of trading....because I put all my eggs in one basket...which is what I am warning others to do.
Sorry this reply is 2-years late but I just joined the forum.

I know from personal experience that GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar default to showing all users and all comments unless specifically disabled by the Host.

If they're saying what was reported that's a blatant lie.