Traders International = SCAM ARTISTS

Traders International (TI) is a SCAM and RIP OFF!!!!!!

Yes, I might as well where a dunce hat and sit on a donkey. These guys are the biggest scam artists on earth. I have been trading with them since April 09 and have yet to make any damn money from their bullsh*t indicators. I have done nothing but lose money with these idiots since i started. It's a f*cking crab shoot. Lets just say that I can flip a coin and make better guesses.

Here is how they count their points gained:
1. When I started, they used to show the ninja trader dom while the moderator trader and made calls. We could see the entry and exits. Now they have taken the dom off the screen completely. Their excuse at first was that it kept crashing, but now it's because they don't want to show it. Instead they just want to show us their sh*tty charts.

2. They use the ninja trader dome (which I really like by the way) and the damn thing is in sim and the jerk offs try to convince you that its live. If it were live the account number would be showing. How stupid do you think we are? Well, I guess pretty stupid for signing up with them.

3. When they showed the dome while we were trading, the moderator would always try and get away with a losing trade by saying that you should have taken your profits when I told you at 1-4 ticks, which is horse sh*t since he said to go for 2 points profit and loss. Let me give an example of how they trade:
1. You have to remember that they are supposed to give you clear
entry and exit points (which they don't) and lately the
moderator supposedly makes a call and oh guess what,
"the mic was off again, you guys didn't hear me make that 3
point trade?" This has happened 4 times in the last month
since they took the trading dome off the screen. Also, the
rooms are in privatized mode so that you can't see what other
people are saying or complaining about. Only the Signal
room, previously called the Pro room, allows you to see what
others are saying; and it's funny that the same people
(about 10) consistently post profits. The rest of the time the
moderator is yelling at people and telling them that it's
their fault that they got out too early or too late. - It goes
something like this: "We are only going for nibbles here
traders (1-2 points)." And when you are in the trade: "I
suggest you take profits here at 1-2 ticks because this is not
going anywhere" or "you should get out now at about 1 point
loss, oh wait, hang on let me look at the price action
again." some people end up getting out at 1 point loss (only
to have the market turn around and actually go in their favor)
and the others get out at 2 point loss. God forbid if it goes
in his favor and you say something, because he will rip you a
new hole. He basically says "It's your fault, you should have
stayed in the trade longer" EVEN AFTER HE SAID TO GET OUT.
2. he starts with 2-3 contracts.
3. he takes 1 out at 1 point and usually the other 2 at
2 points, but sometimes he uses the 3rd contract to ride the
wave just in case it keeps going (90% of the time it
4. Now that the trading dome is gone, we can't even see when he
is getting in and out. He makes a call and everyone gets in
at that price and he will tell you, oh I got in at a tick
or two better for some reasons. You know what I get it,
slippage happens, but who the hell are you kidding. This crap
is happening more and more now that the trading dome is not
5. Here is the real kicker in the butt. After telling people to
get out at 2 points, he leaves the remaining contract on the
table just in case it does go up, and guess what they post on
the site for the world to see? A 2.5 POINT PROFIT. Lets break
it down here: One 1 point profit + One 2 point profit + One 2
point loss = 1 point profit (you still have to take out $4.8
per contract for broker fees). Where the hell did they get 2.5
points from. I'll tell you, its from him letting that last
contract run longer, but what the hell? Didn't he just tell us
to get out? A lot of times the numbers on their site don't
even add up to what the actual profits where. They are wrong
%65 of the time on the calls. Thats worse than me flipping a
coin and making a call.
6. Don't even bother trading with them when it gets close to
options expiration. Good lord - ALL the calls are wrong. It
turns into a BUY HIGH and SELL LOW type of trading.

I'm going to start recording them on my computer (I wish I had done this sooner, before they took the trading dome off) so that I can hopefully get my credit card company to reverse the charges. As of yet, my credit card company will not refund me and they will not stop further charges.

Take my word on this, DO NOT SIGN UP WITH THIS COMPANY. TRADERS INTERNATIONAL IS A SCAM AND RIP OFF. Oh, I forgot to mention this, their "PROPRIETARY TRAINING" or what ever the hell they called it is crap. There is a lot more and better free info on than these idiots provide. What they provide is not even training. A kid can put better information together.

And by the way, don't bother questioning them on why they made a call. Whether it was a good call or a bad call, it doesn't matter, the moderator will only yell at you and tell you he will not explain it to you. WTF?

I'm leaving out a lot, but I'm tired of typing all the crap that is wrong with TI.



I stopped trading with them in May of 2009 and have made my own trading signals that work 75% of the time. If you want to learn about trading, go to the video feed is free, but if you want to see them daytrading, just sign up for the 2 week free trial. I have been with them a month before I started with TI and made lots of money. Then came TI and I have now blown my account way under the $25k daytrading limit. Thats why I made my own signals so I can work my way back up so I can start trading stocks again.

Screw playing with the FUTURES as an only source of income. It is harder and more dangerous to play than stocks.

I have warned you....please don't make my mistake. I don't know where else to post this thing to get the word out, but I will be posting it to as many places as I can.

wow what a bad way to start Sheets...ur really good at putting the odds against urself.

first off, dont rely on this as ur sole income from the get-go. what ur doing is putting unnecessary psychological obstacles on what will become a very long and painful psychological battle. u will need to go into this as worry free as possible because otherwise u will second guess urself and f*ck yourself up, conscious or unconscious. by placing (unrealistic) expectations on your trading, you are welcoming disappointments and negative emotions that will have a long term impact on your trading mentality. to that end i suggest you make sure you have enough income from another job that will guarantee ur survival. for me personally, i found i traded a lot better when i learned to let go of the money i put in as if it was already gone.

second. u shud probably learn how to trade urself by reading books and just reading charts. learning to trade is a long difficult journey and u have to be willing to endure it for success. if u follow someone blindly, ur putting urself at their mercy and ur also making urself very inflexible to any unpredictable things the market and the world throws at you. also there is no guarantee that blindly following someone will get u positive results.

that being said, i really hope you do well and get urself to financial success. from what ive learned both from books and the hard way, ur doing a good job of stacking the odds against urself.
Originally posted by Sheets

Hey living well. I have a very serious question for you. I have just purchased TI this weekend and am trying to soke up as much information as possible before I do the simulator. I like u am trying to get out of a very deep finacial hole and would love to do it by day trading.. I must say I have spent nearly all I have to be able to do this and probably wont have but a couple thousand to trade starting out. I will admit i dont know the first thing about trading and have never even been in a live trading room before. My question to u is, if i do what the instructors tell me and know the signals will I make enough money to live on, even if I have to pay the $300.00 a month continuation fee plus my broker? How garanteed and comfortable should I be doing this with TI, or anyone for that matter? I have to do something so this is where my decisions have taken me.. Please answer me in the most Excruciatingly honest way possible.. And are u making good money with TI? I would appreciate your advise and Dale K. if he would like to reply.. I will be doing sim probably monday or tuesday and gotta tell ya kinda scared.

Hey Jason,
just in this excerpt of your post:

" ... am trying to get out of a very deep finacial hole and would love to do it by day trading.. I must say I have spent nearly all I have to be able to do this and probably wont have but a couple thousand to trade starting out. I will admit i dont know the first thing about trading and have never even been in a live trading room before..."

is a recipe for disaster!!! The odds of you succeeding not knowing a thing about trading and starting out way way way undercapitalized are slim to none. Get a refund and find another avenue for now to improve your financial position. Otherwise, you'll have lost the fee to TI and the other $2k in short order. Seriously bro!

And there's something else that really pisses me off here. TI should have vetted you and your situation, even if you didn't describe it to them up front. They should have asked about your experience, suitability and account size you were planning on beginning with.

And if they did and still went for your money ... well, that's like a guy selling cemetary plots showing up at your front door when he hears you've been in a bad way lately, sitting in a dark room all day, pistol in one hand and a bottle of Jack in the other.

Seriously, in my book that borders on criminal. What kind of pond scum would do that. If you've been straight up with them, TI is not acting in your interest and are grossly negligent. That right there should speak volumes.

In fact, I'd invite TI (since they've recently chosen to enter this thread) to respond here and address this type of negligent and/or predatory marketing of there product that's taking place.

Lives can be ruined by such "vending" in this industry!
A word to the wise, there is an old saying in this business.... "Scared money never wins."

My suggestion to the new trader starting out (aka. Sheets) is :

1. Learn the system to the point where you can accurately anticipate the trade setups and signals as they are setting up in real-time.

2. Learn and practice the correct trade management actions for the system. Get to the point where you don't have to think "what do I do now". You are at the point where you always know exactly what to do in all cases and situations.

3. Develop a real-time (forward looking) simulated performance record using 1 and 2 above. If your performance record produces a positive outcome and a reasonable future expectancy with acceptable associated risk, then proceed to step 4.

4. If and only if you complete steps 1-3 above, and your 100% confident in the system and in your realistic skill to apply the system, only then consider putting your working capital at risk using the system.

It is an exceptional company and program and has been for 11 years to thousands and thousands of people around the world.

Does anyone have any performance statistics for this system... Dan The Mod ?

Even just the most basic stats like:

Win %
Loss %
Avg Win
Avg Loss
Max Win
Max Loss
# trades per day
How funny, and apropos. I recently posted my November monthly commentary, and it just so happens to cover a lot of this same stuff. I was amused to see how lots of the classic aphorisms/adages I had used were listed just now. I think this article may add some more info for those that see the sense of what some of our better-known posters just wrote. Thanks, guys, for the great posts.
Btw ... the FAQ's on the Traders International website has a question about start up capital. It mentions $3000. WTF! Oh yeah, and it also discusses the cost of data feeds etc.

Sheets, I'd strongly encourage you to not only look at the things Jim, PT and others are posting (espec. like documented performance stats for the mod) ... but also reconsider even pursuing trading right now. Get your capital back from TI ... if you're left with $2g to trade and TI on their site recommends a minimum of $3g account size, they're helping you shoot yourself in the foot. And besides, $3g is paltry ... that's more like a minimum of what you would want to have to trade per each contract, where I prefer to allocate more in the neighborhood of $5g per contract traded.

Please rethink this Jason!!
Originally posted by jimkane

How funny, and apropos. I recently posted my November monthly commentary, and it just so happens to cover a lot of this same stuff. I was amused to see how lots of the classic aphorisms/adages I had used were listed just now. I think this article may add some more info for those that see the sense of what some of our better-known posters just wrote. Thanks, guys, for the great posts.

Excellent commentary Jim !

Everyone really does need to read what Jim has to say. While reading it, I nodded my head in confirmation to each of Jim's points.

I like the days where I sit at the monitors for 8 or 10 hours straight and don't place one order the whole day. In a way, I think those may be some of my most productive days. Food for thought...
Thanks for the positive feedback, PT. I wasn't sure how well that article was going to go over. Like the dating analogy, I want to tell it like I see it, but I also don't want to scare away those that really have what it takes by only showing the tough side to things. I thought it was so coincidental how the last posts in this thread fit right along with what I had just written.
My observation here may be more cut and dried and perhaps more extreme than some really great, well reasoned posts. But I've been there, done that. Jim, PT and others ... with my posts, am I pissing in the Atlantic on this? It seems that there is a more basic issue for Jason or anyone with a similar situation ... that I've obviously been hammering on.

But fu@k, I've trained hundreds of folks over the years and NEVER NEVER would allow this to happen under my watch. Obviously I'm serious and passionate about this ... but would like y'alls input/feedback on the most basic stuff I've posted about to help Jason ... the key elements that need to be in place even before considering the solid info to subsequently consider that y'all have provided in your posts for effective trading.
MonkeyMeat - feel free to hammer away on this issue because your right it is a very important concept.

I agree with you and Jim that one mistake many aspiring traders make is to be overly optimistic on their skill and potential success and immediately proceed to underfund their trading business accordingly. I think it safe to assume we have covered this specific issue 50 times through the years here at the mypivots forum. I also think it is safe to assume we will cover it another 50 times in the years ahead

I agree completely, someone like Sheets should not start live trading with an underfunded account. I think we all agree doing so is a recipe for disaster. My bare minimum recommendation for traders like Sheets is to maintain and apply the exchange margin on each contract traded. For the ES contract that would be approx. $4,000 per contract (conservatively rounding off in favor of the exchange). I traded the ES for many years using a hard rule of $10,000 per contract which I consider a bullet proof level of contract support. Today, although I have relaxed my 10K rule, I still would never consider taking a live trade with less than the exchange margin backing it. Some folks reading this may question the 10K rule. My response is as follows: I know if I am bullet proof I will trade smarter. I also know, if your in a live trade, and your scared, then your not bullet proof, and you will make more mistakes over the course of time. One goal in all of this is to avoid making basic mistakes. Mistakes cost time and money.

The exchange sets the margin on these contracts. Brokers set minimum funding requirements to open and maintain a futures account. The risk managers at the brokerage and FCM have the fiduciary duty to monitor and control unhedged risk for their firms. One thing I disagree with is the $500 "day trading margin" brokers are allowing new traders to use. I personally think new traders should be required by the CFTC to use the exchange margin.

With all of that said, I personally do not think it is the responsibility of a trading education company like TI (with thousands of students) to verify the financial eligibility of each student. I do think it is prudent for TI to provide instruction and training on how to determine the correct account size for the market and position size being taught by the school. They can and should hammer home concepts like limiting the amount of your working capital at risk for any given trade. (Jim Kane for example has written about risking no more than 1 to 2 % of your working capital). I hope TI is teaching these vital concepts to their students. They need to teach students why this stuff matters, why it is so essential to survival in this business. After all, in the final analysis, these are the intangible things that will determine success or failure for almost all (if not all) futures traders.

If we apply the Pareto principle to this, we can safely say starting a new trading career with an underfunded account ranks at or very near the top of the list of reasons why almost all new futures traders fail within the first 2 years (applying Jim's business failure schedule).
I hope everyone is doing good and staying away from companies like Traders International. I have not traded for over 2 years now because a few weeks after I posted that comment in 2012, my dad was diagnosed with brain cancer and after a long struggle, he ended up passing away. Just wanted to update this post and show that what I posted was not fake. I have attached a pdf of my month end statement in Jan. 2012 to show anyone who doesn't understand what a real trade statement looks like or for any of you who didn't believe me when I said I was making way over 20k per month without the help of crooks like Traders International! I have also included a daily statement in pdf format as well and NO I'm not going to leave my name or account number on there. I always take out anything above $110k-$120k from my account. Taking money out above a certain limit you set for yourself is a must; hard to explain why, but it helps psychologically. Go and compare the statements that Traders International(TI) shows to fool people who are newbies into believing their lies. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried copying this or something similar to make their simulation trades look like real trades. This will be my last post here. Good luck, stop being sheep, and stop being lazy. Do the leg work required to teach yourself because the information is on the internet for free. You just have to find it and stop relying on other people to do the hard work for you.
Click link to access uploaded file:
Statement on 01252012.pdf

Click link to access uploaded file:
Statementon 01312012.pdf