Traders International = SCAM ARTISTS

Traders International (TI) is a SCAM and RIP OFF!!!!!!

Yes, I might as well where a dunce hat and sit on a donkey. These guys are the biggest scam artists on earth. I have been trading with them since April 09 and have yet to make any damn money from their bullsh*t indicators. I have done nothing but lose money with these idiots since i started. It's a f*cking crab shoot. Lets just say that I can flip a coin and make better guesses.

Here is how they count their points gained:
1. When I started, they used to show the ninja trader dom while the moderator trader and made calls. We could see the entry and exits. Now they have taken the dom off the screen completely. Their excuse at first was that it kept crashing, but now it's because they don't want to show it. Instead they just want to show us their sh*tty charts.

2. They use the ninja trader dome (which I really like by the way) and the damn thing is in sim and the jerk offs try to convince you that its live. If it were live the account number would be showing. How stupid do you think we are? Well, I guess pretty stupid for signing up with them.

3. When they showed the dome while we were trading, the moderator would always try and get away with a losing trade by saying that you should have taken your profits when I told you at 1-4 ticks, which is horse sh*t since he said to go for 2 points profit and loss. Let me give an example of how they trade:
1. You have to remember that they are supposed to give you clear
entry and exit points (which they don't) and lately the
moderator supposedly makes a call and oh guess what,
"the mic was off again, you guys didn't hear me make that 3
point trade?" This has happened 4 times in the last month
since they took the trading dome off the screen. Also, the
rooms are in privatized mode so that you can't see what other
people are saying or complaining about. Only the Signal
room, previously called the Pro room, allows you to see what
others are saying; and it's funny that the same people
(about 10) consistently post profits. The rest of the time the
moderator is yelling at people and telling them that it's
their fault that they got out too early or too late. - It goes
something like this: "We are only going for nibbles here
traders (1-2 points)." And when you are in the trade: "I
suggest you take profits here at 1-2 ticks because this is not
going anywhere" or "you should get out now at about 1 point
loss, oh wait, hang on let me look at the price action
again." some people end up getting out at 1 point loss (only
to have the market turn around and actually go in their favor)
and the others get out at 2 point loss. God forbid if it goes
in his favor and you say something, because he will rip you a
new hole. He basically says "It's your fault, you should have
stayed in the trade longer" EVEN AFTER HE SAID TO GET OUT.
2. he starts with 2-3 contracts.
3. he takes 1 out at 1 point and usually the other 2 at
2 points, but sometimes he uses the 3rd contract to ride the
wave just in case it keeps going (90% of the time it
4. Now that the trading dome is gone, we can't even see when he
is getting in and out. He makes a call and everyone gets in
at that price and he will tell you, oh I got in at a tick
or two better for some reasons. You know what I get it,
slippage happens, but who the hell are you kidding. This crap
is happening more and more now that the trading dome is not
5. Here is the real kicker in the butt. After telling people to
get out at 2 points, he leaves the remaining contract on the
table just in case it does go up, and guess what they post on
the site for the world to see? A 2.5 POINT PROFIT. Lets break
it down here: One 1 point profit + One 2 point profit + One 2
point loss = 1 point profit (you still have to take out $4.8
per contract for broker fees). Where the hell did they get 2.5
points from. I'll tell you, its from him letting that last
contract run longer, but what the hell? Didn't he just tell us
to get out? A lot of times the numbers on their site don't
even add up to what the actual profits where. They are wrong
%65 of the time on the calls. Thats worse than me flipping a
coin and making a call.
6. Don't even bother trading with them when it gets close to
options expiration. Good lord - ALL the calls are wrong. It
turns into a BUY HIGH and SELL LOW type of trading.

I'm going to start recording them on my computer (I wish I had done this sooner, before they took the trading dome off) so that I can hopefully get my credit card company to reverse the charges. As of yet, my credit card company will not refund me and they will not stop further charges.

Take my word on this, DO NOT SIGN UP WITH THIS COMPANY. TRADERS INTERNATIONAL IS A SCAM AND RIP OFF. Oh, I forgot to mention this, their "PROPRIETARY TRAINING" or what ever the hell they called it is crap. There is a lot more and better free info on than these idiots provide. What they provide is not even training. A kid can put better information together.

And by the way, don't bother questioning them on why they made a call. Whether it was a good call or a bad call, it doesn't matter, the moderator will only yell at you and tell you he will not explain it to you. WTF?

I'm leaving out a lot, but I'm tired of typing all the crap that is wrong with TI.



I stopped trading with them in May of 2009 and have made my own trading signals that work 75% of the time. If you want to learn about trading, go to the video feed is free, but if you want to see them daytrading, just sign up for the 2 week free trial. I have been with them a month before I started with TI and made lots of money. Then came TI and I have now blown my account way under the $25k daytrading limit. Thats why I made my own signals so I can work my way back up so I can start trading stocks again.

Screw playing with the FUTURES as an only source of income. It is harder and more dangerous to play than stocks.

I have warned you....please don't make my mistake. I don't know where else to post this thing to get the word out, but I will be posting it to as many places as I can.

Hey LivingWell, since you think they are so reputable why don't you go and read this as well [url][/url]

So much for their reputation. Sigh.......
Here is another quote from another site

"I just thought about it. If you can make such large percentages, why would you take someone else’s money, make money for them and then collect only a small fee for your services? You’d make so much more by just investing your own money. If you can turn 50,000 into half a million in 6 months, why would you do it with someone else’s money and then get a small fee for it. You’d just keep replicating it with your own money and be filthy, filthy rich. I just don’t get that."

I can do this all day every day if I have to. If you think I will sit here and let trash like traders international rip off more people you sadly mistaken. I will do this every day if I have to, to get the word out about TI. You will not steal my hard earned money and think that the stupid disclaimer you have to cover you sorry behinds will prevent the word about your crook of a company from getting out. You kicked the wrong person in the head.

Think about, if traders international had such a great system, why the hell don't they trade with real company money and profit that way too. Oh geeeee, let me think, could it be because that PROPRIETARY SYSTEM doesn't actually work. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

I will post to this site and every other site I can if have to prevent more people from falling victim to these vultures.

Before you stupid posters voice your opinion here about how much i'm ranting and have an agenda, why don't you answer my question of why they don't trade with company money live????????????????

If you can answer that satisfactoraly, then you are welcome to post a response, otherwise shut you mouth and keep your useless opinions to yourself.

I'm not posting this so that numskulls like LivingWell can benefit. I'm posting this so that the little guy doesn't get stepped on like a bug.

And by the way, how the hell do they keep posting these large profits every month, month after month, without fail and yet, they dont trade with company money? Since they are such a big international company they should have a lot of money in their trading account so you know what lets be modest and say that they trade with 20 contracts. That would equate to $100K minimum in there brokerage account.

Lets do the math - average of 30 points per month * $50 per contract * 20 contracts = $30K per month in profit. Now that's some good return. That would = $360K per year. WOW!!!!!!! I would love to make that much money just trading the futures, because then $10K would mean nothing to me. But you cant actually deliver on that promise can you TI? Why, because the numbers are skewed to whatever they want. Remember it's simulated trading. Oh and another thing, I remember when they would bring guests from the demo sessions to the pro trading room, the negative number on the simulation would be reset before they came in, unless the loss was oh so little that it wouldn't scare people away. And don't say it didn't happen, because I was there..... I saw it with my own 2 eyes. And no it was not just 1 or 2 times.

So answer my question above before you post garbage. And stop copy pasting my entire freakin post just to make your own post look longer. You try and dissect it, but you end up making yourself look like a fool.

As long as TI is around I will not stop posting information for people to stay away from that soon to be ENRON of a company. One of these days you will step on the wrong feet and you WILL be shut down. Your days are numbered TI. Enjoy them while they last. Unless you change your ways, the number of people getting ticked off will only increase.
I really wish I had read this 7 months ago before I bought TI. Yes, the rooms are awful. They often have you stand in front of a bus hoping for reversals. And they are in sim. Sheets, try to avoid ever trading against the trend using their system (just take their continuation signals if possible). I have seen them get stopped out 6 times in a row looking for a reversal.

The pro room was the worst. It is a completely black box system that has nothing to do with TI's method. The moderator will certainly lash out at anyone who questions the calls. I remember losing trades where he would say "I'm out, out, out." Then the trade would go in his direction, so he would say, "I'm still in." Then the ppl in the room would be upset, so there was a big discussion about the attendees having to count how many "outs" he said to see if he might still be in the trade! What a joke. I also remember him trading 70 contracts (sim of course) to make 1 positive tick so he wouldn't show a horrible loss for the day. And if the first trade of the day works out, he'll tell everyone to go to sim so he's not responsible for any losses for the rest of the day. He eventually locked the room down so you didn't even have the choice to be in the room without him personally approving you.

Possibly John Ford knows what he's doing (the guy that does the trade of the day). When I was a member, I would wish he was a moderator just so I wouldn't lose my shirt everyday. Generally his trades were pretty early, but when the trades were around 11am I felt he probably had a loss or two and had to clear his dom to reflect a good trade.

Some people do make money with them, but they often are doing their own thing (not just the TI method). I remember one guy in the room would just bracket the 10am news everyday to make a couple points, and said he averaged 10 ticks a day (so I guess half a point listening to the moderator). There was another lady trading 35 contracts at a time who must have known what she was doing, because I would have lost my house.

Yes, I found another cheap system that I use. I will not mention it here because apparantly that would mean everything I said was a lie. Good luck all.
Caveat Venditor: Franz Shoar & Traders InternationalPublished May 2nd, 2006 in Internet, Trading.
Tags: elitetrader, franz shoar, gurus, messageboard, traders international.

An interesting bit of drama played out a few days ago inside the EliteTrader messageboard. After becoming a paid sponsor, Traders International started posting about their star trading teacher Franz Shoar (Faramarz Vahdatshoar).

At TI, Franz, was supposedly trading the spoos live, and pulled in hundreds of thousands of dollars a day on average. For a fee, he was willing to teach anyone by letting them look over his shoulder. As you can imagine, that got a lot of attention. Finally, the man himself came and told everyone that he would be happy to answer any and all questions. That really got things going.

Especially since it had already been revealed that Franz uses a counter-trend strategy and simply doubles down. Some piped in that they knew all the big players in the spoos and Franz, definitely was not one of them. After all, the kind of size that he was throwing around gets a trader noticed.

People started to suspect that it was trading but trading on a simulator and that Franz was flat out lying. It didn’t take too long for the whole thread to deteriorate into juvenile ad hominems. But not before there were some very polite and coherent comments. Some astute trader mentioned that TI and Franz were probably going to get a visit by the CFTC soon.

Lo and behold! We were told not soon after that yes, Franz was on a simulator. Those dollars that he was throwing around were just digits dancing on the monitor and were not really in play.

Next thing we know, Franz “retired”, due to bad health; TI’s website was overhauled and all mentions of Franz excised and the threads on ET were also erased. Oh and this new Yahoo! Group was created by a whistle blower from within TI to organize legal action against Franz and TI.

If you’re a vendor, the moral of the story, is to watch where you tread. The same medium that allows you to market your services so freely and inexpensively can be used against you. Venture into ET to make outlandish and fraudulent claims and you might very well get your lungs ripped out.

Finally, I can’t leave this topic without mentioning the role of the financial press. TI bought an advertorial (an ad that looks like an article) on SFO and Traders World Magazine did a fawning piece on Franz. I hope that this whole sorry episode can serve as a wake up call for the them and their peers so that next time, they don’t think that due diligence is just pretty sounding legal jargon

thats dale kazden BTW.
I purchased Trader's International 9 months ago.

Trust me, they are worthless. I wasted a ton of money and time with them.

They are very good marketers and they sucked this chic right up!!!

Stay away.

Lynn W.
Thought id weight in with my thoughts regarding TI.. First off ive been a member here for a number of years and although I dont usually post I take the time to check the forums periodically.. I was a member of the orginal delta t1 trading room going back a few years.. I took the TI class in 2000 and found the method easy to learn but it did have a number of wiggles and hoops for differnt market conditions.. When comparing my results with the daily recap I noticed a number of mistakes and trades that didnt qualify...Every time id contact Roger hed acknowledge that sometimes the recaps werent perfect and that id become adept at seeint the signals.. I also quicky saw that this wasnt going to work long term cause of market conditions that could give loser after loser...strong trends that would produce multiple stop outs and extremely whippy marketswhich would produce signals both ways without the target of 2 points beng hit.. I had initial success mostly cause i didnt trade every day and wanted to focus on my reaL busness. Id still keep logs when i could and compare with the recaps and note the numerous mistakes which i sent to Roger.. Subsequently Roger contacted me and asked if he could use my statements as a reference . I was confused and asked him why he couldnt use his own and he later admitted that he didnt trade in real time but had to focus on the classes and responding to all the students.. After a few months I was contacted by Afshin who offered me a position at TI which I didnt accept due to my business... As someone who knows these indicators inside and out they will not work as outlined..The system has many subjective imputs to be used as outs and many of their results use fills that were never possible to get in a real market.. Their contract is hard to do charge backs... Do you need any more...Avoid..The TI system is a rehash of a Tim Chou system . If your still interested do a search you can find the settings for free..
Originally posted by ironman

...When comparing my results with the daily recap I noticed a number of mistakes and trades that didnt qualify...

Thanks for your summary ironman - much appreciated.

Were the mistakes always in favor of showing the TI system as more profitable than it would have been or were they 50/50 favorable/unfavorable for TI?

There would often be missed trades that were clearly losers...Some of the winners posted could have never been executed with realistic fills..If the signal would move 2 points from entry they would count as winner whether the fill was executed for exit.. Roger Felton should have been DiCaprios father in Catch Me If You Can.. They believe anthing you tell them... The document you sign when you take the course makes it difficult to do charge backs and they avoid taking CCs for that reason Afshin was able to convince a few students to invest so as to open new locations.. There are no students who have used the TI method alone who can produce winning brokers statements after a year..TI uses new traders mentality to convince them they are not looking at the big picture correctly. The monthly room fees are just another ruse to keep all the sheep in line.. It is widely known that Fran S was using his own bullseye method in the TI room a few years back...Basically it just averaged against a losing position . When the market had a strong trend and he lost big $$ he would just shut the room down for the day.. As my dad used to say ...he was a district attorney...All the crooks either end up in Florida or Texas...
Originally posted by ironman

As my dad used to say ...he was a district attorney...All the crooks either end up in Florida or Texas...

And don't forget Nevada.

I notice Franz is pumping his bullseye course and posting atsronomical results. Do you have any idea what he's actually using there?

He only gives a one day free trial putting the odds in his favor it will be a "winning" day.
I hope everyone is doing good and staying away from companies like Traders International. I have not traded for over 2 years now because a few weeks after I posted that comment in 2012, my dad was diagnosed with brain cancer and after a long struggle, he ended up passing away. Just wanted to update this post and show that what I posted was not fake. I have attached a pdf of my month end statement in Jan. 2012 to show anyone who doesn't understand what a real trade statement looks like or for any of you who didn't believe me when I said I was making way over 20k per month without the help of crooks like Traders International! I have also included a daily statement in pdf format as well and NO I'm not going to leave my name or account number on there. I always take out anything above $110k-$120k from my account. Taking money out above a certain limit you set for yourself is a must; hard to explain why, but it helps psychologically. Go and compare the statements that Traders International(TI) shows to fool people who are newbies into believing their lies. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried copying this or something similar to make their simulation trades look like real trades. This will be my last post here. Good luck, stop being sheep, and stop being lazy. Do the leg work required to teach yourself because the information is on the internet for free. You just have to find it and stop relying on other people to do the hard work for you.
Click link to access uploaded file:
Statement on 01252012.pdf

Click link to access uploaded file:
Statementon 01312012.pdf